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3 ways to tell if your a RTS noob


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#51 Libains

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 20:15

OK, cool your horses the lot of you.

I've been there, done that for pretty much everything in ZH. Note that I will say right now that I did not start off as a massively uber-turtling noob, nor did I finish as an elitist, rushing prig. Whenever I have played (and I have played most of the people on FS currently) I have always played to have fun. It has never been in my mind 'Oh no I won't do that' or 'Screw the lot of you I'll do it my way'. It's always been 'Lets have a laugh and see where this goes'.

As a ZH player I would say that I was always quite strategic in my play - I knew my opponents and how they played by the end of my time on ShW, and as a result, I would adapt my playstyle to the faction they were playing as. So yes, sometimes I rushed. Sometimes I turtled. Sometimes I played to turn players on each other. Whatever suited me. So I've played through pretty much every style (although I never did manage to beat Erik iirc). Aaron, I remember the days when you were a little noob yourself, desperately imploring people for hints and for them to go easy. We did, but we also gave you a run for your money when we thought you could handle it. In this essence, we held the middle ground that Wiz mentioned earlier - the 'tough love' area. As we are (nearly) all friends here, we are capable of pushing each other should we need to, but most of the time, we play for the sheer love of playing, and whatever comes out of that, so be it. I'm not going to get angry at somebody turtling their life away in ZH or TF2, as there is always a way around it. But likewise, you can beat a rush, and if you do, you're likely going to have chance to kill the opponent off.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no right way to play a game of ZH anymore. As Soup rightly states, by altering the ruleset you're inherently altering the balance of the game, thus why I always stay well clear of any server/game that has been modded outside of a way that the producer has creatd it unless it is a legit mod. For example no-crit TF2 servers. I don't go near them because the crit system is part of the game, and I refuse to play without it - I curse and swear when I lose out to that bastardised critrocket that has just wiped me off the face of the earth, but I also love it when I do that to someone else. In turn, I hate losing to a rush, but pulling one off is great too. Gaming inherently causes us to have emotions at both end of the spectrum, both love and hate. To be a real RTS gamer you have to know and experience both, and realise that every cheap tactic can be beaten, and every cheap tactic can be used. If you refuse to both love and hate every part of the game, you don't know the game in full. I could be a lame little shit in ZH, but I also had some great moments, and I don't think anyone would have called me arrogant, or irritating. Gaming is a passion, but you have to separate that passion from your opinion of the game - the game is what it is, and no manner of crying, bitching, moaning, or forcibly trying to change people is going to make the game change.

Finally, to quote Aaron earlier:

Quote

More or so "Thanks for teaching me how to play dude i appreciate it"

That's great. But you need to remember none of us are noobs here. We've been playing games for years, and whether you love us or hate us, we're probably not going to change our playstyles now. All we can guarantee is that we will provide good conversation, and a fun game if it's not taken too seriously. Part of the thing that drove me away from ShW was the sheer ultra-competitive nature it began to develop. We all knew the rules regards the balance/etc, sometimes we broke them. It was fun. Bitching about broken balance was the most infuriating thing there was when it was serious, but also quite fun when it was lighthearted. You just need to trust the people you play with to do the right thing for them, and to enjoy the game. Setting too many rules just makes people more likely to break them.
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#52 Destiny

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 22:15

You make sense, AJ.

View Postscope, on 3 Aug 2010, 1:46, said:

Definitely rushing is far more fun than turtling. Defensive play gets stale quick.

Actually for me it's the opposite...I seem to have fun/take pleasure in watching my defense lines wiping out the incoming enemies over and over again (I remember I turtled against four hard AIs 7 hours straight on ShW), until I...feel like 'it' and go kill the enemies. If my defense line loses a Adv. Patriot or gets heavily damaged, I get inspired to see what's wrong with my defenses, then correct it, and...well, stuff.
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#53 Wizard

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 22:33

View PostHotSoup, on 2 Aug 2010, 19:39, said:

You won't win friends by doing it, and only breed enemies.
It's not that he'll make enemies here, it's just that we've seen a variation on the theme with regards to playstyle before. It almost destroyed ShW at the time and caused no end of wars in public. We've been through the whole argument lots of times and it won't do what Aaron wants (to get people gaming) any favors. I should clarify here that I think the intentions of the topic are quite noble, it's just that he's been perceived (at least by me and several others, clearly) in the wrong vain.

#54 Zhao

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 22:40

View PostDestiny, on 2 Aug 2010, 22:15, said:

You make sense, AJ.

View Postscope, on 3 Aug 2010, 1:46, said:

Definitely rushing is far more fun than turtling. Defensive play gets stale quick.

Actually for me it's the opposite...I seem to have fun/take pleasure in watching my defense lines wiping out the incoming enemies over and over again (I remember I turtled against four hard AIs 7 hours straight on ShW), until I...feel like 'it' and go kill the enemies. If my defense line loses a Adv. Patriot or gets heavily damaged, I get inspired to see what's wrong with my defenses, then correct it, and...well, stuff.



In the beginning of any game i think we can all agree that we used to love that xD

However why prevent your self from playing online? it works there so i don't see much difference.

#55 R3ven

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 22:45

In my honest opinion,

Turtling
Pros: We all do it in our first time playing games
Cons: It gets boring for most people.
Extras: It can be a good tactic if you know how to do it correctly.

AI
Pros: Doesn't complain or give up
Cons: Sucks, hard. Unless it's Supreme Commander Forged Alliance or DoW AI on the highest difficulty.
Extras: They should be called Artificial Stupid sometimes.

EDIT2: And to make this post semi-thread related

Rushing
Pros: Is fun to do. Can end a game or totally make the game more interesting.
Cons: The latter sentence in the Pros part depends on opposing skill levels
Extras: It's fun but not always what I do in online matches.

Edited by Huhnu, 02 August 2010 - 22:50.


#56 GuardianTempest

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:33

Phew, online drama ended?

And good call Huhnu.
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#57 Alias

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:44

The problem as a whole is it is too game-specific. It applies very well to Zero Hour, yes, but a lot of other games it is practically impossible to directly win in the first 5-10 minutes, however indirect actions are very important in the first part of the game. Dawn of War for example, you should be harassing at around 2 or 3 minutes in, but by no means can you win off direct harassment. In Total Annihilation, it's practically impossible to win in the first 10 minutes unless you Commbomb (which is one of the greatest tactics to ever grace RTS, by the way). In Rise of Nations or AOE2 it's also practically impossible to win in the first 10 minutes, but your actions in the time are the most important in the entire game.

In short, as I said in my first post in this thread, they are both part of the game, get over it and move on.

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#58 Destiny

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:45

View PostAaron:Wii, on 3 Aug 2010, 6:40, said:

View PostDestiny, on 2 Aug 2010, 22:15, said:

You make sense, AJ.

View Postscope, on 3 Aug 2010, 1:46, said:

Definitely rushing is far more fun than turtling. Defensive play gets stale quick.

Actually for me it's the opposite...I seem to have fun/take pleasure in watching my defense lines wiping out the incoming enemies over and over again (I remember I turtled against four hard AIs 7 hours straight on ShW), until I...feel like 'it' and go kill the enemies. If my defense line loses a Adv. Patriot or gets heavily damaged, I get inspired to see what's wrong with my defenses, then correct it, and...well, stuff.


However why prevent your self from playing online? it works there so i don't see much difference.

I am not a fan of lag and delayed commands. In that GLA-forest-thingy AoD I played with the others, even though I was capable of building a defence line it was extremely messy and inefficient.
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#59 Kris

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:52

----

Edited by Kris, 27 February 2017 - 09:45.








#60 JJ

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:16

I think the main point of the article here is not about rushing every single game, it's about walking out of the noob stages of online play. I mean, the article itself really only encourages you to get better and not just sit in your little base as though you're playing SimCity.

As such, I think it's a rather valid article that applies to all RTS, it's point is not rushing, but:
- Not whining about an enemy that wants to defeat you by all (non-hack) means.
- Being aggressive yourself.
- Learning to control your units.

One thing I don't really understand is the stigma with rushing. What's wrong with it? It's just building units early and sending them to attack, you only lose to that directly if you, well, suck. If you still lose when you don't suck, it's probably a matter of bad game balancing/design.

And yes, I do think compstomping all day with 100k cash is wrong, it's not what RTSs are designed to do. It's like playing chess with yourself, without the opponent so you just slowly kill piece by piece. I do play that once in a while, but you must remember playing online is many, many times more fun, even with lag, disconnection and what-not. Even compstomping is more fun with a human ally.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is with people who just can't face losing, people who do not attempt to get better because they keep getting beaten. And then, they will proceed to not play online ever again, and stick to the AI. I really feel that people should at least try playing online once in a while, it's the only time when RTSs make any sense.

And Aaron, I think you should try convincing people in a softer manner. There are people who will never listen no matter what, shouting into their ears only scare off the others. Degrading (even unintentionally) other people is not the way to go too, why make enemies when you can make friends? Remember, there are always people that are willing (and capable) to rip apart your argument and put you in the wrong.

#61 BeefJeRKy

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:31

View PostDestiny, on 3 Aug 2010, 1:15, said:

You make sense, AJ.

View Postscope, on 3 Aug 2010, 1:46, said:

Definitely rushing is far more fun than turtling. Defensive play gets stale quick.

Actually for me it's the opposite...I seem to have fun/take pleasure in watching my defense lines wiping out the incoming enemies over and over again (I remember I turtled against four hard AIs 7 hours straight on ShW), until I...feel like 'it' and go kill the enemies. If my defense line loses a Adv. Patriot or gets heavily damaged, I get inspired to see what's wrong with my defenses, then correct it, and...well, stuff.

Well I was referring to online play. Rushing an AI is far more difficult because they have fast reaction times, and can be all over the place far better than you. Turtling against an AI is sometimes necessary especially if they get cash injections. Personally, when I play against AI in non-C&C RTSes like DoW, I go for an early harassment of my enemy (steal some req points etc.) to gain an economic advantage. But in C&C, your resource income is far easier to protect (also easier to destroy). Finally, online play is very different from skirmish.
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#62 GuardianTempest

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:43

Lag is an advantage I am busy trying to harness, thank god I have a weak PC.

And yet the cold feeling of victory is so addicting, that's why there are noobs.

EDIT: If victory was just as worthless as losses, then games would straighten up a bit.

Edited by GuardianTempest, 03 August 2010 - 11:47.

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#63 Camille

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 16:22

victories ARE worthless. unless your mom makes you a sammich every time you win a game. which i doubt is very plausible.

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#64 Zhao

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 16:44

What i like about RTSes is that

If you Win , well you win.
If you lose you only get better.

Nothing is cooler then that.

Edited by Aaron:Wii, 03 August 2010 - 16:44.


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Posted 03 August 2010 - 17:10

View PostAaron:Wii, on 3 Aug 2010, 16:44, said:

What i like about games is that


fixxed
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#66 Zhao

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 17:21

View PostKris, on 3 Aug 2010, 11:52, said:

View PostDestiny, on 3 Aug 2010, 6:15, said:

You make sense, AJ.

View Postscope, on 3 Aug 2010, 1:46, said:

Definitely rushing is far more fun than turtling. Defensive play gets stale quick.

Actually for me it's the opposite...I seem to have fun/take pleasure in watching my defense lines wiping out the incoming enemies over and over again (I remember I turtled against four hard AIs 7 hours straight on ShW), until I...feel like 'it' and go kill the enemies. If my defense line loses a Adv. Patriot or gets heavily damaged, I get inspired to see what's wrong with my defenses, then correct it, and...well, stuff.





Dude, that's so damn hardcore. I have no patience to turtle and play ZH/ShW 7 hours straight :) !!


As for the topic, i have nothing else to say since i barely play offline anyway :xD:



fixed

Edited by Aaron:Wii, 03 August 2010 - 17:21.


#67 Slightly Wonky Robob

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 18:44

View PostJJ_, on 3 Aug 2010, 12:16, said:

One thing I don't really understand is the stigma with rushing. What's wrong with it? It's just building units early and sending them to attack, you only lose to that directly if you, well, suck. If you still lose when you don't suck, it's probably a matter of bad game balancing/design.

Exactly that; everyone has a different skill level, if you aren't that good and someone repeatedly kicks your arse by rushing you, where's the fun in that? I'm not saying rushing (or any strategy, for that matter) is bad, but what's the point in wiping the floor with someone who isn't that good? It would be like playing a game of football with a child and beating them 50 - nil... sure, well done, you beat them, but seriously, you could have done that without sucking the fun out of the game (for your opponent).

View PostJJ_, on 3 Aug 2010, 12:16, said:

And yes, I do think compstomping all day with 100k cash is wrong, it's not what RTSs are designed to do. It's like playing chess with yourself, without the opponent so you just slowly kill piece by piece. I do play that once in a while, but you must remember playing online is many, many times more fun, even with lag, disconnection and what-not. Even compstomping is more fun with a human ally.

Maybe it's more fun for you, but doesn't mean it's more fun for everyone. Everyone has (and is entitled) to their own opinion. Sure, playing online with human players is often a hell of a lot more challenging, but challenging != fun. I (used to) enjoy playing online with people from FS, but it's also nice just having a nice relaxing game against some AI. Neither was more fun, they were/are simply different... but that's just my opinion.

View PostJJ_, on 3 Aug 2010, 12:16, said:

In my opinion, the biggest problem is with people who just can't face losing, people who do not attempt to get better because they keep getting beaten. And then, they will proceed to not play online ever again, and stick to the AI. I really feel that people should at least try playing online once in a while, it's the only time when RTSs make any sense.

Maybe that is a reason why some people don't play online, but like I have already said; If you are repeatedly getting your arse kicked, where's the fun? Why wouldn't you stop playing online? Some people just don't want to play online, and what's wrong with that? Games have offline modes for a reason, and at the end of the day it's their choice whether they want to stick to that or not.

View PostAaron:Wii, on 3 Aug 2010, 17:44, said:

What i like about RTSes is that

If you Win , well you win.
If you lose you only get better.

Nothing is cooler then that.

Err, no.

Just because you lose doesn't mean you automatically get better. If you are playing against someone of similar or slightly higher skill level, sure you can often learn things from it... but it's not like you get EXP from every game you play until you eventually level up.

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#68 Zhao

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 19:02

the thing is if you lose to something you will learn how to stop it eventually no matter how many beat downs it takes.

Its the patience you have and if losing or winning is everything to you.

I remember when i was a FPS gamer getting a 20 kill death streak but that did not stop me i didn't care i kept trying and i enjoyed my self and guess what? im the one dishing out the 20 kills now.

#69 Mbob61

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 21:18

View PostJJ_, on 3 Aug 2010, 12:16, said:

In my opinion, the biggest problem is with people who just can't face losing, people who do not attempt to get better because they keep getting beaten. And then, they will proceed to not play online ever again, and stick to the AI. I really feel that people should at least try playing online once in a while, it's the only time when RTSs make any sense.


View PostAaron:Wii, on 3 Aug 2010, 17:44, said:

If you Win , well you win.
If you lose you only get better.


I agree with both and have personal and recent experience, admittedly not on ZH but it was an RTS (BFME2)
I recently started playing BFME 2 against Mr.Mylo who originally kicked my ass about 10 games in a row. The first 4 were utter walk overs and the rest became closer as they went along. I kept going and, having learned from those defeats, managed to finally beat him. Our games then became very close with me winning slightly more than him.
Had i just given up after my first few defeats, i would have have gotten any better and would have lost the fun of playing with him online.
People shouldn't just give up after a few defeats and resign themselves to single player or comp stomping. The only way to get better is to play a lot and learn from your previous mistakes. You won't get any better by magic.

Mike

Edited by Mbob61, 03 August 2010 - 21:20.

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#70 GuardianTempest

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 21:45

Well if anyone wants the toughest AI that will rip you off your map no matter what...


Remix .75 Granger in Insane difficulty.

Even I can't place my troops just outside my defenses.

This way, you don't have to whine about the AI being weak, you only have to whine not having enough support to beat it.
-------------------------------------------

Agree with Mike.

"What kills us only makes us stronger when we respawn" ~I forgot...
EDIT: Grammar check.

Edited by GuardianTempest, 03 August 2010 - 21:46.

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#71 Zhao

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 21:50

What network are you on i wanna see what you talking about

#72 Alias

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:22

View PostMbob61, on 4 Aug 2010, 7:18, said:

I agree with both and have personal and recent experience, admittedly not on ZH but it was an RTS (BFME2)
I recently started playing BFME 2 against Mr.Mylo who originally kicked my ass about 10 games in a row. The first 4 were utter walk overs and the rest became closer as they went along. I kept going and, having learned from those defeats, managed to finally beat him. Our games then became very close with me winning slightly more than him.
Had i just given up after my first few defeats, i would have have gotten any better and would have lost the fun of playing with him online.
People shouldn't just give up after a few defeats and resign themselves to single player or comp stomping. The only way to get better is to play a lot and learn from your previous mistakes. You won't get any better by magic.
You don't just get automatically better either. Some people are just naturally better. Back in the day, I probably played 500+ 1v1s against Stinger, however I don't think I won more than 50 of them. Yes, most of the games are very close, but he was still far better than I was and probably still is, even after all of this time. A similar thing happened with Dawn of War in the past, I played a lot of 1v1 games against Hunter, however again I only won a few times.

Generally speaking, by playing the game, yes you get experience, but so does your opponent. When I play Shockwave against people who I deem less skilled than me I think of some crazy experimental strategy just to see if it works. If it does, I use it again. I've found out several funny-but-useful things during the process and also 'got better' so to say. You're not going to automatically get better than someone just by playing against them only.

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#73 Zhao

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:43

View PostAlias, on 4 Aug 2010, 3:22, said:

View PostMbob61, on 4 Aug 2010, 7:18, said:

I agree with both and have personal and recent experience, admittedly not on ZH but it was an RTS (BFME2)
I recently started playing BFME 2 against Mr.Mylo who originally kicked my ass about 10 games in a row. The first 4 were utter walk overs and the rest became closer as they went along. I kept going and, having learned from those defeats, managed to finally beat him. Our games then became very close with me winning slightly more than him.
Had i just given up after my first few defeats, i would have have gotten any better and would have lost the fun of playing with him online.
People shouldn't just give up after a few defeats and resign themselves to single player or comp stomping. The only way to get better is to play a lot and learn from your previous mistakes. You won't get any better by magic.
You don't just get automatically better either. Some people are just naturally better. Back in the day, I probably played 500+ 1v1s against Stinger, however I don't think I won more than 50 of them. Yes, most of the games are very close, but he was still far better than I was and probably still is, even after all of this time. A similar thing happened with Dawn of War in the past, I played a lot of 1v1 games against Hunter, however again I only won a few times.

Generally speaking, by playing the game, yes you get experience, but so does your opponent. When I play Shockwave against people who I deem less skilled than me I think of some crazy experimental strategy just to see if it works. If it does, I use it again. I've found out several funny-but-useful things during the process and also 'got better' so to say. You're not going to automatically get better than someone just by playing against them only.


I think i would learn faster getting pwned by the best player there then fighting a player below my skill level , we all learn a different way though :)

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:14

I never said I learn 'better' against worse players, I learnt a lot more things off Stinger than I learnt off anyone else. I just added that at the bottom to say that playing off worse off players isn't always bad for you (reinforcing my major point, which is while you do learn while playing, so does everyone else you are playing with, so your relative skill level doesn't necessarily increase).

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#75 Golan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:43

Lol... the main article is built up on a couple of premises which simply aren't a universally intrinsic part of RTSs and the very notion of blindly taking them for granted is what makes most people resent this kind of online play. Learn2Logic, Nub!

Anyways, the idea that you just have to loose often enough to become good and thereby all the stuff you have to go through as a newby (like, getting stomped, outmaneuvered and outskilled without you knowing why) doesn't make a game any worse - that's BS. If some people like to do it the Spartan way, well that's fine for them, but for the majority of people the game simply fails hard in terms of intuitiveness and entertainment - it's a game, not an interactive study on the TCP violation of myons in super heated condensed coffee box matter.

One thing I don't really understand is the stigma with defending. What's wrong with it? It's just trying to prepare for an attack, you only think that's lame if you, well, have to look up the difference between tactics and strategy in a dictionary. If you still don't have fun battling a defensive player even when you don't suck, it's probably a matter of bad game balancing/design.

Edited by Golan, 04 August 2010 - 10:57.

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