27 replies to this topic

[Brad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...cation-11677862

God bloody damnit.

I can't really say much more than the analysis put forward by the BBC's political correspondent

Quote

What's become clear today is that the government won't simply defend their higher education proposals by pointing to extra help for the least well off - but will also attack Labour for a lack of an alternative.
The opposition chose to denounce cuts to university funding because they can't yet agree on a graduate tax, but they know they will have to spell out soon what they will propose, as well as oppose.

A few Lib Dems used the debate to make it clear they wouldn't support the proposals as they had made a pledge to vote against any increase in fees at the last election.
Even more have indicated privately that they will vote against the measures in December - and not simply abstain, which is allowed as part of the coalition agreement.
So there will be a parliamentary rebellion. But it seems very unlikley that LibDem backbenchers will rebel in sufficient numbers to inflict a defeat on the government.

This will only impact the majority of students negatively; it may bode well for universities, and perhaps the economy, but their meagre defence of a "greater choice for students with a stronger focus on high quality teaching" doens't account for the many intelligent students who will now be facing much more debt in their lives, and will impact every student's decision to join university or not massively.

Worst case scenario might lead to every university, due to loss of state funding, charging the full £9000, and many students would not be able to cope well after the debt payments begins, especially in the current job climate; it may also lead to a skills shortage, due to a lack of students deciding to go to university, which would mean a bigger need for migration from other countries for people with these skills. The current lack of doctors, with the debt of the university fee's looming, would only worsen as well.

[Mbob61]

God damnit!
I really hope this doesn't apply to me given that I've already signed my contract at £3225 per year.
I came to university with the knowledge that my fees will be going up to 9000. It would likely force me to drop out which wouldn't really be my fault. I wouldn't have come if i knew that.

Mike

[Brad]

Exactly my point. The massive fees will deter many, many people. This, of course, leading to many more problems than it fixes.

[Shirou]

Sweet hell that is a lot of money. In my country students are also cut but nowhere near that amount. I pay less than half of the tuition fee you guys do at the moment, and thats the ceiling, and I get gifted financing from the government if I finish my study. I hadn't realized the UK financial atmosphere for students is so much worse. I feel quite lucky now.

[Jok3r]

Truth be told, my sympathy is limited. There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university. Far too many do, and it's created a situation where (in the US at least, and I assume somewhat similarly in the UK) we have technical institutions for students going into jobs that totally don't need a degree, whose jobs are now requiring these technical schools. It creates a situation where students expect the government to pay for their education, so they can go into jobs to pay off the debt, many of which never really needed this education to begin with. I'll post later when my head is a little clearer, but I kinda wanted to say this now.

[deltaepsilon]

Heh, reminds me of this Paul Keating quote - some protesters complaining to him about university fees, and he just retorts "Get a job!"

[SquigPie]

Odd, how they want youths to get good educations, yet make it so damn hard for you...

Edited by SquigPie, 04 November 2010 - 07:22.

[Alias]

Big deal.
Average for uni here is around $12000 (£7500) to $16000 (£10000) per annum. I pay close to $20000.

Although that said, Australia's standard of living is practically only rivalled by the Scandinavian countries, so usually that debt gets paid off pretty quickly. My brother pays closer to $16000 a year, and he's got his debt paid off already (he's in his final year of four).

The government gives zero (compounding) interest loans, usually with a small singular interest loading that is added on to prevent leeching. We pay it back through the tax system and do not have to pay any of it back before we earn around $42000 a year.

[Shirou]

Jok3r, on 4 Nov 2010, 4:09, said:

Truth be told, my sympathy is limited. There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university. Far too many do, and it's created a situation where (in the US at least, and I assume somewhat similarly in the UK) we have technical institutions for students going into jobs that totally don't need a degree, whose jobs are now requiring these technical schools. It creates a situation where students expect the government to pay for their education, so they can go into jobs to pay off the debt, many of which never really needed this education to begin with. I'll post later when my head is a little clearer, but I kinda wanted to say this now.

I agree with your main point. Current social pressure is very focussed on your kid reaching University and there are some parts of the western world, be it my country, Australia or the UK, where highly educated parents just can't live with their child not reaching a degree as well.

However this is a societal problem, hasn't got much to do with the problem of the tuition fees. In the Netherlands, it is extremely cheap to go to University. I pay €1600 (A$ 2300) a year and at the height of the study-financing system, the government contributed to almost 100% of the living costs of some students in the 90s. Today it is much less (the government gifts me just about enough for my rent now) but it is still a very social system. As a result, college attendance in the Netherlands has gone up to almost 50%, oversaturating the market with many useless degrees.

Facing a steep budgetary deficit, most left wing parties I support campaigned for, basically, a copy of the Australian system. Too bad we are stuck with a conservative liberal government, only good at procrastinating everything substantial The system would perfectly fit as our economy has barely been hit by the crisis and the Netherlands has the strongest growth and lowest unemployment rate of all of Europe (would say we top out those Scandinavian countries).

I wonder, Alias, does the system in your country not make students favour the more financially attractive degrees so they can more easily repay their debt? Wouldn't it create a run on management studies, business administration and economic degrees?

Edited by Shirou, 04 November 2010 - 11:01.

[Wizard]

Jok3r, on 4 Nov 2010, 3:09, said:

There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university.

Bravo that man. Higher education/university is not and should not be for everyone. A degree in the UK has been massively devalued in the last 10 years due to the fact that a certain left wing government thinks that everyone and his dog deserves an education that is, quite frankly, well beyond their mental capacity, let alone their financial means. These fees are excessive, I grant you, which will prevent a proportion of society that do deserve the chance to further their education from doing so, but it will stop a large number of people from gonig to uni who don't want to, won't hack it, or from taking "bird" courses in an attempt to make it look like they are educated when they aren't.

I maintain that university should be free for all those with the intellect and mental capacity to achieve a degree worth something, not an option to delay going to work for three years and get drunk instead. If you can pass an entry exam of the highest level (university level, not college level) then you should be given the financial assistance to study. It shouldn't be based on what grades you get college and whether Daddy can foot the bill.

[Alias]

Shirou, on 4 Nov 2010, 21:54, said:

I wonder, Alias, does the system in your country not make students favour the more financially attractive degrees so they can more easily repay their debt? Wouldn't it create a run on management studies, business administration and economic degrees?

Not usually. The universities try to peg the cost of the degree to the relative income of the career.
Although that said, the highest paying graduate job here is not anything to do with business, economics or medicine. It is mining.

I pay more money as I do my course in a year less, so I can get a whole extra year of full time work.

[Shirou]

Why would you want to worry about that at this stage of your life?

This may seem a bit lazy but why rush it just in order to earn an extra year of money, something that I don't think is going to substantially increase your living standard. Unless of course, you find your years in university less satisfying than working full time.

Edited by Shirou, 04 November 2010 - 11:37.

[Alias]

I am currently unemployed. I would probably have done it over three years if I had work, but to me it seems a bit stupid to go to uni for half of the year and sit on your arse for the other half. If I've got to do something during then, I may as well do more uni.

[Ion Cannon!]

Dr.Wizard, on 4 Nov 2010, 11:10, said:

Jok3r, on 4 Nov 2010, 3:09, said:

There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university.

Bravo that man. Higher education/university is not and should not be for everyone. A degree in the UK has been massively devalued in the last 10 years due to the fact that a certain left wing government thinks that everyone and his dog deserves an education that is, quite frankly, well beyond their mental capacity, let alone their financial means. These fees are excessive, I grant you, which will prevent a proportion of society that do deserve the chance to further their education from doing so, but it will stop a large number of people from gonig to uni who don't want to, won't hack it, or from taking "bird" courses in an attempt to make it look like they are educated when they aren't.

I maintain that university should be free for all those with the intellect and mental capacity to achieve a degree worth something, not an option to delay going to work for three years and get drunk instead. If you can pass an entry exam of the highest level (university level, not college level) then you should be given the financial assistance to study. It shouldn't be based on what grades you get college and whether Daddy can foot the bill.

Thats entirely right, and this stupid trend is set to continue. For some reason the UK see's other countries graduation percentages as higher therefore we must also make more graduates, why? So many jobs that require a degree now used to be done on the job. There are also degree's that plain fucking shouldn't exist. Or huge numbers of students doing something which is essentially fucking worthless, especially with the massive job cuts incoming to the UK there won't be any jobs for these people to go to. When my parents graduated it was about 7% of the UK with a degree, and you were practically guarenteed a job as whatever it was, there would be alot of on the job training anyway. Nowadays in very few degree's are you really guarenteed a job, many graduates with "soft" degree's even end up unemployed or in jobs that don't need a degree. This was one of labours fundamental policies I disagreed with and it saddens me that the coalition are continuing this madness! 50% is unsustainable and uneccessary, 15% is about right.

Edited by Ion Cannon!, 04 November 2010 - 13:09.

[Golan]

Ahahahahahaha... lol. Goodbye GB. So now instead of having a few brainers and lots of dead-brainers in university you now have only rich brainers and lots of dead-brainers. Great improvement!

Edited by Golan, 04 November 2010 - 15:21.

[Chyros]

Whatever it is that they do in Finland, it should be like that . They got professors teaching in nursing school .

[Ion Cannon!]

Golan, on 4 Nov 2010, 15:20, said:

Ahahahahahaha... lol. Goodbye GB. So now instead of having a few brainers and lots of dead-brainers in university you now have only rich brainers and lots of dead-brainers. Great improvement!

Really adding to the discussion there Golan..

[Brad]

Ion Cannon!, on 4 Nov 2010, 13:08, said:

Dr.Wizard, on 4 Nov 2010, 11:10, said:

Jok3r, on 4 Nov 2010, 3:09, said:

There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university.

Bravo that man. Higher education/university is not and should not be for everyone. A degree in the UK has been massively devalued in the last 10 years due to the fact that a certain left wing government thinks that everyone and his dog deserves an education that is, quite frankly, well beyond their mental capacity, let alone their financial means. These fees are excessive, I grant you, which will prevent a proportion of society that do deserve the chance to further their education from doing so, but it will stop a large number of people from gonig to uni who don't want to, won't hack it, or from taking "bird" courses in an attempt to make it look like they are educated when they aren't.

I maintain that university should be free for all those with the intellect and mental capacity to achieve a degree worth something, not an option to delay going to work for three years and get drunk instead. If you can pass an entry exam of the highest level (university level, not college level) then you should be given the financial assistance to study. It shouldn't be based on what grades you get college and whether Daddy can foot the bill.

Thats entirely right, and this stupid trend is set to continue. For some reason the UK see's other countries graduation percentages as higher therefore we must also make more graduates, why? So many jobs that require a degree now used to be done on the job. There are also degree's that plain fucking shouldn't exist. Or huge numbers of students doing something which is essentially fucking worthless, especially with the massive job cuts incoming to the UK there won't be any jobs for these people to go to. When my parents graduated it was about 7% of the UK with a degree, and you were practically guarenteed a job as whatever it was, there would be alot of on the job training anyway. Nowadays in very few degree's are you really guarenteed a job, many graduates with "soft" degree's even end up unemployed or in jobs that don't need a degree. This was one of labours fundamental policies I disagreed with and it saddens me that the coalition are continuing this madness! 50% is unsustainable and uneccessary, 15% is about right.

So, you're basically saying, that you'd back the idea to sacrifice the students who may not be able to afford those fees, just so you can get rid of those 'lacklustre', 'worthless' people who take less prestigious degrees?
I agree that the decline of the university degrees standards is a very big concern, but I will never condone blocking the right to learn of the other, less well-off, more deserving of the people.
That kind of solution is fucked up.
No, not everyone should go to university, those silly degrees shouldn't exist; but neither should the rightful, very intelligent students of the current, and future years should be put off by those fees.

And Wiz, your solution is a good one, I agree there. Anyone with the intellect shouldn't be put off their learning by the financial side of the whole hassle.
The fact that the people who do go to Uni probably not getting a job was part of my opening post.

50% is plain stupid. Most unreachable goal I've heard from the Government.

Golan, on 4 Nov 2010, 15:20, said:

Ahahahahahaha... lol. Goodbye GB. So now instead of having a few brainers and lots of dead-brainers in university you now have only rich brainers and lots of dead-brainers. Great improvement!

Seems that might be the case, considering the Lib Dems are far too scared to vote against the stupid idea.

[Ion Cannon!]

Brad, on 4 Nov 2010, 17:27, said:

Ion Cannon!, on 4 Nov 2010, 13:08, said:

Dr.Wizard, on 4 Nov 2010, 11:10, said:

Jok3r, on 4 Nov 2010, 3:09, said:

There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university.

Bravo that man. Higher education/university is not and should not be for everyone. A degree in the UK has been massively devalued in the last 10 years due to the fact that a certain left wing government thinks that everyone and his dog deserves an education that is, quite frankly, well beyond their mental capacity, let alone their financial means. These fees are excessive, I grant you, which will prevent a proportion of society that do deserve the chance to further their education from doing so, but it will stop a large number of people from gonig to uni who don't want to, won't hack it, or from taking "bird" courses in an attempt to make it look like they are educated when they aren't.

I maintain that university should be free for all those with the intellect and mental capacity to achieve a degree worth something, not an option to delay going to work for three years and get drunk instead. If you can pass an entry exam of the highest level (university level, not college level) then you should be given the financial assistance to study. It shouldn't be based on what grades you get college and whether Daddy can foot the bill.

Thats entirely right, and this stupid trend is set to continue. For some reason the UK see's other countries graduation percentages as higher therefore we must also make more graduates, why? So many jobs that require a degree now used to be done on the job. There are also degree's that plain fucking shouldn't exist. Or huge numbers of students doing something which is essentially fucking worthless, especially with the massive job cuts incoming to the UK there won't be any jobs for these people to go to. When my parents graduated it was about 7% of the UK with a degree, and you were practically guarenteed a job as whatever it was, there would be alot of on the job training anyway. Nowadays in very few degree's are you really guarenteed a job, many graduates with "soft" degree's even end up unemployed or in jobs that don't need a degree. This was one of labours fundamental policies I disagreed with and it saddens me that the coalition are continuing this madness! 50% is unsustainable and uneccessary, 15% is about right.

So, you're basically saying, that you'd back the idea to sacrifice the students who may not be able to afford those fees, just so you can get rid of those 'lacklustre', 'worthless' people who take less prestigious degrees?
I agree that the decline of the university degrees standards is a very big concern, but I will never condone blocking the right to learn of the other, less well-off, more deserving of the people.
That kind of solution is fucked up.
No, not everyone should go to university, those silly degrees shouldn't exist; but neither should the rightful, very intelligent students of the current, and future years should be put off by those fees.

And Wiz, your solution is a good one, I agree there. Anyone with the intellect shouldn't be put off their learning by the financial side of the whole hassle.
The fact that the people who do go to Uni probably not getting a job was part of my opening post.

50% is plain stupid. Most unreachable goal I've heard from the Government.

Golan, on 4 Nov 2010, 15:20, said:

Ahahahahahaha... lol. Goodbye GB. So now instead of having a few brainers and lots of dead-brainers in university you now have only rich brainers and lots of dead-brainers. Great improvement!

Seems that might be the case, considering the Lib Dems are far too scared to vote against the stupid idea.

Err I don't think you understood my point. I don't think there should be any fee's and I don't support a rise. What I do support is trying to unfuck our HE system. Because currently anyone with a BTEC can get to university, which is just ridiculous. People need to get degree's because so many jobs require them, those jobs never used to require them. If there was a change so those jobs no longer required the employee to have a degree, there would be no need to get a degree. This would cut down hugely on the amount of wasted degree's / money and slash the graduation rate.

I will expand more on this later, need to go out.

[Brad]

I sort of skimmed, sorry.

I thought that you were backing the fees for the chance to try and unfuck the system, I guess I missread somewhere.

In anycase, as it currently stand it looks like these fees are set to stand, due to not all the Lib's voting against.

[Golan]

Ion Cannon!, on 4 Nov 2010, 17:26, said:

Golan, on 4 Nov 2010, 15:20, said:

Ahahahahahaha... lol. Goodbye GB. So now instead of having a few brainers and lots of dead-brainers in university you now have only rich brainers and lots of dead-brainers. Great improvement!

Really adding to the discussion there Golan..

Do you require me to clarify my point?

[Shirou]

At the point of those jobs requiring a degree. It may be because the UK does not have vocational universities? You have those foundation degrees an higher education certificates but those only really serve to get those students into University, rather than being a closing course that gets them ready for employment.

Vocational, or 'Universities of applied sciences' work really well in that employers in this country prefer taking their freshmen off these institutions because they know how to work.

[SquigPie]

Golan, on 4 Nov 2010, 22:06, said:

Ion Cannon!, on 4 Nov 2010, 17:26, said:

Golan, on 4 Nov 2010, 15:20, said:

Ahahahahahaha... lol. Goodbye GB. So now instead of having a few brainers and lots of dead-brainers in university you now have only rich brainers and lots of dead-brainers. Great improvement!

Really adding to the discussion there Golan..

Do you require me to clarify my point?

Maybee it was a little too subtle for some people? I dunno, I understood it.

[Rich19]

Dr.Wizard, on 4 Nov 2010, 12:10, said:

Jok3r, on 4 Nov 2010, 3:09, said:

There are some parts of this that seems well... I hate to say it, but a good idea. The reason I say this, and likely the biggest thing I'm going to get backlash on saying here is simple: not everyone needs to go to university.

Bravo that man. Higher education/university is not and should not be for everyone. A degree in the UK has been massively devalued in the last 10 years due to the fact that a certain left wing government thinks that everyone and his dog deserves an education that is, quite frankly, well beyond their mental capacity, let alone their financial means. These fees are excessive, I grant you, which will prevent a proportion of society that do deserve the chance to further their education from doing so, but it will stop a large number of people from gonig to uni who don't want to, won't hack it, or from taking "bird" courses in an attempt to make it look like they are educated when they aren't.

I maintain that university should be free for all those with the intellect and mental capacity to achieve a degree worth something, not an option to delay going to work for three years and get drunk instead. If you can pass an entry exam of the highest level (university level, not college level) then you should be given the financial assistance to study. It shouldn't be based on what grades you get college and whether Daddy can foot the bill.

I wholeheartedly agree with this idea. There are too many people in the university system at the moment who spend most of their week getting smashed and waking up at midday, and excusing this with the idea that they "only need 40%" to get through the year. However, simply raising the fees are an awful way to cut numbers of students, as intellect and financial means are two totally separate things. I know a lot of people here in Cambridge who wouldn't be here if the fees were at £9000.



EDIT -

Shirou, on 4 Nov 2010, 23:10, said:

At the point of those jobs requiring a degree. It may be because the UK does not have vocational universities? You have those foundation degrees an higher education certificates but those only really serve to get those students into University, rather than being a closing course that gets them ready for employment.

Vocational, or 'Universities of applied sciences' work really well in that employers in this country prefer taking their freshmen off these institutions because they know how to work.

Nope, the tories got rid of all the Polytechnics. We ended up with about 30 new second rate "universities" awarding "degrees" in all these mickey mouse subjects you hear about. It's not entirely labour's fault that a UK education is rather devalued nowadays.

Edited by Rich19, 05 November 2010 - 10:25.

[Wizard]

Rich19, on 5 Nov 2010, 10:16, said:

EDIT -

Shirou, on 4 Nov 2010, 23:10, said:

At the point of those jobs requiring a degree. It may be because the UK does not have vocational universities? You have those foundation degrees an higher education certificates but those only really serve to get those students into University, rather than being a closing course that gets them ready for employment.

Vocational, or 'Universities of applied sciences' work really well in that employers in this country prefer taking their freshmen off these institutions because they know how to work.

Nope, the tories got rid of all the Polytechnics. We ended up with about 30 new second rate "universities" awarding "degrees" in all these mickey mouse subjects you hear about. It's not entirely labour's fault that a UK education is rather devalued nowadays.

Polytechnics or Technical Colleges are a not going to do much. Due to cultural shifts in the UK people will not want to go to these over the traditional HE route, as they would be resigned to working as an electrician, plumber or hairdresser. The percentage of teenagers willing to believe that they are going to live their lives as one of these over being a lawyer, footballer or Paris Hilton style attention-whore is actually in the tens of people. Gone are the days when one of these trades was considered to be a good way of making a living. Political decisions will not alter that.