Exactly. And if our glorious democracies have come to a point were everyday business has to be withheld from the public (as the article implies) then we're just one step away from the good old feudal times.
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Wikileaks leaks embassy cables
Started By Soul, Nov 29 2010 09:40
39 replies to this topic
#26
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 09:20
Now go out and procreate. IN THE NAME OF DOOM!
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:26
WikiLeaks is a threat but not a threat to be annihilated, it is a threat to be countered, the only way to counter it ethically and morally is to stop things like this! To stop using diplomats as spies, to stop waterboarding and torturing.
It's comparable to stealing, you do it to serve yourself, you DON'T do it because of the risk it bears (Although we shouldn't do it because of it being wrong, but sadly, tests show that people are more likely to do it if there's no risk). WikiLeaks is the big nasty security guy standing in the conor, and the government is nothing more than a bunch of theives wanting to get rid of him.
It's comparable to stealing, you do it to serve yourself, you DON'T do it because of the risk it bears (Although we shouldn't do it because of it being wrong, but sadly, tests show that people are more likely to do it if there's no risk). WikiLeaks is the big nasty security guy standing in the conor, and the government is nothing more than a bunch of theives wanting to get rid of him.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
#28
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:37
About a week ago I was listening to an AM radio show here in Belgrade, and I heard something. It's not directly related to the Wikileaks issue, but it could make an interesting point. Of course, I can't exactly quote it word for word, so take this only as my interpretation.
Basically, what the interview was about was the transformation from a democratic state/republic into a party state. I'm not really in a position to argue whether this particular phenomenon is happening in the US, the UK, the western world, nor is that the point I'm trying to make. But one of the characteristics of said process in the alienation of government.
You see, a party state is not impossible within a democratic system. All that it essentially requires is security of the regime in power. And by said security I presume either the actual inability to change the government, or if the elective change is meaningless to those 'in charge' (eg. if there is a lot of outer-governmental influence, which is an issue here in Serbia, and I believe also in the region). When such security is achieved, liberty suffers. The government becomes unaffected by criticism, and even though there is no actual repression of the people (not on a major scale at least) there is no mechanism to force changes. This puts the 'Average Joe Voter' in a passive state - if he just peacefully protests against change A, nothing happens. If he votes for party B, it immediately supports change A, again no results. And to take the struggle one step beyond... Not many people are prepared to do that.
Where Wilkileaks and similar 'services' step in is to create a way to break this security. Force the (proverbial) Man to look over his (proverbial) shoulder. And is there a better way to be secure then the ability to classify anything that is bothersome. Or even REclassify previously declassified documents (I read about CIA doing this - and guess what, they weren't reclassifying things instrumental to national security, they did it on records of their blunders!).
Insiders will always exist. This can very well be a platform for them.
Basically, what the interview was about was the transformation from a democratic state/republic into a party state. I'm not really in a position to argue whether this particular phenomenon is happening in the US, the UK, the western world, nor is that the point I'm trying to make. But one of the characteristics of said process in the alienation of government.
You see, a party state is not impossible within a democratic system. All that it essentially requires is security of the regime in power. And by said security I presume either the actual inability to change the government, or if the elective change is meaningless to those 'in charge' (eg. if there is a lot of outer-governmental influence, which is an issue here in Serbia, and I believe also in the region). When such security is achieved, liberty suffers. The government becomes unaffected by criticism, and even though there is no actual repression of the people (not on a major scale at least) there is no mechanism to force changes. This puts the 'Average Joe Voter' in a passive state - if he just peacefully protests against change A, nothing happens. If he votes for party B, it immediately supports change A, again no results. And to take the struggle one step beyond... Not many people are prepared to do that.
Where Wilkileaks and similar 'services' step in is to create a way to break this security. Force the (proverbial) Man to look over his (proverbial) shoulder. And is there a better way to be secure then the ability to classify anything that is bothersome. Or even REclassify previously declassified documents (I read about CIA doing this - and guess what, they weren't reclassifying things instrumental to national security, they did it on records of their blunders!).
Insiders will always exist. This can very well be a platform for them.
Science is magic, only complicated.
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 13:11
Even if WikiLeaks is taken down, a new one will just spring up, Anonymous won't stand for WikiLeaks getting shut down, they hacked Assanges bank when it closed his account.
Edited by SquigPie, 10 December 2010 - 13:12.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
#30
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 13:27
Tbh the hacktivists are getting on my nerves though. Some Dutch hackers hacked his bank or something, now they caught a 16-year-old Dutch boy who was apparently in on it and they hacked the Dutch police website as "revenge" 
. It's all rather pathetic IMO, something detracting from the issues at hand. The hacktivists on both sides should just sod off and stop interfering IMO.
. It's all rather pathetic IMO, something detracting from the issues at hand. The hacktivists on both sides should just sod off and stop interfering IMO.
TN
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
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I have an Energon Axe. Your argument is invalid.
Posted 10 December 2010 - 15:15
I think the argument now is less about if transparency is good and more about whether Assange and wikileaks can even be considered as doing that. To me it feels more like Assange dishing out his own personal brand of justice despite everyone else. Does he have a degree in diplomacy? Probably not, he's seen the cables and gone "I don't like this so I'm going to try and make things change." Has anyone heard of the "Insurance policy" file floating around? If that's not leveraging things for your own use then I don't know what is.
There's a splinter group who were apparently sick of Assange's "Emperor of all" ways who are starting a similar group called Openleaks, who plan to operate by giving info to the media instead of just data dumping.
As for the Hacktivists... Well apparently loic can be traced so good luck to them. Does anyone find the concept of attacking those who oppose your view in the name of free speech sadly ironic? Anon are pretty mug acting in the interests of their own survival either way: I'd say they're scared that if something did happen on the free speech front 4chan would be the first to dive.
There's a splinter group who were apparently sick of Assange's "Emperor of all" ways who are starting a similar group called Openleaks, who plan to operate by giving info to the media instead of just data dumping.
As for the Hacktivists... Well apparently loic can be traced so good luck to them. Does anyone find the concept of attacking those who oppose your view in the name of free speech sadly ironic? Anon are pretty mug acting in the interests of their own survival either way: I'd say they're scared that if something did happen on the free speech front 4chan would be the first to dive.
Masonicon, on 17 Oct 2009, 13:44, said:
According to Conspiracy theories in internet, sci-fi and fantasy are real!
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^^^ Pronouced like the battery brand ^^^
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 16:58
Chyros, on 10 Dec 2010, 8:27, said:
Tbh the hacktivists are getting on my nerves though. Some Dutch hackers hacked his bank or something, now they caught a 16-year-old Dutch boy who was apparently in on it and they hacked the Dutch police website as "revenge" . It's all rather pathetic IMO, something detracting from the issues at hand. The hacktivists on both sides should just sod off and stop interfering IMO.
. It's all rather pathetic IMO, something detracting from the issues at hand. The hacktivists on both sides should just sod off and stop interfering IMO.The thing is, it's really easy to do, and you really don't do anything. If I weren't at college, I'd prolly go ahead and install LOIC on my comp and let some anon direct my comp in generating spam to take down sites. It's kinda pathetic, but it has much more of an impact than taking to the streets and nearly zero actual harm. (nobody is going to have their ability to use their mastercard hampered because their mainpage is down, who the hell goes to mastercard.com anyways?)
Most of anon's attacks are just to get attention to the issue, as they are very very against any sort of censorship. You could argue that taking down other people sites is cenship, but imo, they're not doing it to prevent you from reading something on mastercard.com, they're doing it because they're trying to draw attention to the fact that mastercard stopped letting people donate to wikileaks.
I'm actually really rather pissed these companies stopping donations to wikileaks. Donations are a form of expression; I support what I donate to. To stop people from donating is to stop them from expressing themselves, essentially a vialation of freedom of speech. I don't see why I can donate to the KKK or neonazis, organizations that activily pursue harming people and encouraging racism, but I can't donate to an organization that is simply telling us what the goverment is actually doing behind it's veil of vagueness and lies.
RaiDK, on 10 Dec 2010, 10:15, said:
I think the argument now is less about if transparency is good and more about whether Assange and wikileaks can even be considered as doing that. To me it feels more like Assange dishing out his own personal brand of justice despite everyone else. Does he have a degree in diplomacy? Probably not, he's seen the cables and gone "I don't like this so I'm going to try and make things change." Has anyone heard of the "Insurance policy" file floating around? If that's not leveraging things for your own use then I don't know what is.
There's a splinter group who were apparently sick of Assange's "Emperor of all" ways who are starting a similar group called Openleaks, who plan to operate by giving info to the media instead of just data dumping.
As for the Hacktivists... Well apparently loic can be traced so good luck to them. Does anyone find the concept of attacking those who oppose your view in the name of free speech sadly ironic? Anon are pretty mug acting in the interests of their own survival either way: I'd say they're scared that if something did happen on the free speech front 4chan would be the first to dive.
There's a splinter group who were apparently sick of Assange's "Emperor of all" ways who are starting a similar group called Openleaks, who plan to operate by giving info to the media instead of just data dumping.
As for the Hacktivists... Well apparently loic can be traced so good luck to them. Does anyone find the concept of attacking those who oppose your view in the name of free speech sadly ironic? Anon are pretty mug acting in the interests of their own survival either way: I'd say they're scared that if something did happen on the free speech front 4chan would be the first to dive.
I have the insurance file right now. I actually kinda hope he gets shot or something, then the password will be released and we can find out about the US's extra-dirty secrets.
LOIC can be easily traced, but it's not the collective LOIC guys that are gonna be taken down, it's the gunner. The LOIC gunner is the guy that aims the LOIC data-stream at apecific websites to take them down. The guy in the Netherlands is a gunner.
Right now there's about 12k people on the LOIC hivemind, so I really don't think they can arrest them all. Especially if they're in a country that doesn't give a shit about this issue, like Russia or any country not that considered 'the West'.
Obviously. 4Chan is technically the freest place on the internet (which combined with the illusion of anonimity gets you complete vulgar anarchy), so if anything happened to free speech and internet neutrality, 4Chan would likely be heavily censored or taken down. But the thing is, anon recruits from 4chan, they don't operate on 4chan. Those guys set up random proxies everywhere, and operate on the torr network, so there's no way you can take those guys down easily. But without people to man the LOIC, anon won't be able to gun down any websites, and thus will become moot.
In other news: Lula da Silva supports wikileaks
Edited by NergiZed, 10 December 2010 - 17:10.
#33
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 21:16
NergiZed, on 10 Dec 2010, 18:58, said:
Most of anon's attacks are just to get attention to the issue, as they are very very against any sort of censorship. You could argue that taking down other people sites is cenship, but imo, they're not doing it to prevent you from reading something on mastercard.com, they're doing it because they're trying to draw attention to the fact that mastercard stopped letting people donate to wikileaks.
TN
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
#34
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It's a trap!
Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:04
CodeCat
Go dtiomsaítear do chód gan earráidí, is go gcríochnaítear do chláir go réidh. -Old Irish proverb
Go dtiomsaítear do chód gan earráidí, is go gcríochnaítear do chláir go réidh. -Old Irish proverb
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:18
CodeCat, on 15 Dec 2010, 11:04, said:
If I'd posted that people probably would've gotten angry and called me unconstructive...
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
#36
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:19
Ironically, Anonymous aren't anonymous at all. They explicitly don't censor their own IP addresses, which is why they could get apprehended so easily.
TN
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:25
Chyros, on 15 Dec 2010, 11:19, said:
Ironically, Anonymous aren't anonymous at all. They explicitly don't censor their own IP addresses, which is why they could get apprehended so easily.
I guess alot of them (I have no knowledge of hacking though) use fake IP's or hack other people's IP's.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 13:31
SquigPie, on 15 Dec 2010, 12:25, said:
Chyros, on 15 Dec 2010, 11:19, said:
Ironically, Anonymous aren't anonymous at all. They explicitly don't censor their own IP addresses, which is why they could get apprehended so easily.
I guess alot of them (I have no knowledge of hacking though) use fake IP's or hack other people's IP's.
TN
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
#39
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I have an Energon Axe. Your argument is invalid.
Posted 16 December 2010 - 07:08
Yeah LOIC leaves your IP completely unguarded, so those sites that went down probably have all their IPs in their traffic logs.
Masonicon, on 17 Oct 2009, 13:44, said:
According to Conspiracy theories in internet, sci-fi and fantasy are real!
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Posted 16 December 2010 - 21:12
Golan, on 9 Dec 2010, 20:11, said:
Scope, on 7 Dec 2010, 22:04, said:
I would like to thank the Wikileaks founder Assange for throwing fuel onto the embers of the Lebanese situation. Tension is nearing breaking point. A paper links our current defense minister with giving Israel ideas on how to attack Hezbollah. Nothing short of treason as much as I hate Hezbollah. And furthermore, this guy was picked by Syria too, so it's a fucking big mess now. And more talks of an upcoming war with Israel are flying all over the place.
Isn't that the fault of the persons who actually made that mess, not the ones who uncovered it?
Futschki, on 9 Dec 2010, 23:52, said:
Uhm, there's the time factor, it's not the same revealing them now as it is after 10 years, the situation in here is already at stake. What I mean is I wouldn't want to uncover the covered if it means war and destruction of my country.
pretty much this. i think releasing this information at a sensitive time isn't wise. Anyway, it seems things are going nowhere here anyway.
As for wikileaks, I'm not even taking it too seriously anymore. IMO, some things are ok to be leaked. Especially when they reveal illegal actions/requests. But some documents are just commentaries about other nations that are rather pointless IMO. And the hacker war going on is a little OTT. It's really giving the whole movement a hippie impression more than anything.
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