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Osama is Dead


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#76 SquigPie

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:58

View PostAlias, on 4 May 2011, 10:06, said:

View PostSquigPie, on 4 May 2011, 17:52, said:

View PostAlias, on 4 May 2011, 8:27, said:

View PostSquigPie, on 4 May 2011, 16:13, said:

1. Shooting someone in the legs with military grade weapons may kill them within minutes, both out of shock and out of bloodloss.
Why shoot him at all then? He was not armed.


To prevent him from running away. Maybe?
Which is exactly what I said before you said the whole thing was flawed. :sly:


Your logic makes zero sense. I can't argue with you over how pointless your argument just was.

Anyway, I'm out of here. I don't like the tone of this discussion anymore.

Edited by SquigPie, 04 May 2011 - 09:02.

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As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
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#77 TehKiller

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:01

You are pulling out when you realized that you are having your arse handed in a debate :sly:
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#78 Nid

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:23

Who gives a shit what they should have done? The man admitted to, and probably did orchestrate the 9/11 attacks, I'm glad they did something about it rather than nothing. Think of the other possibilities the could have arose if they took him alive? Attempts on his life would have been made anyway. If Imprisoned there would again be a chance for him to become iconic amongst followers, as there would if images of him dead were released. The man deserved what he got, and frankly I'm glad I dont have to hear more from him. Ever. Fucking nutjob.

Edited by Nid, 04 May 2011 - 11:24.

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#79 CJ

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:33

View PostTehKiller, on 4 May 2011, 12:01, said:

You are pulling out when you realized that you are having your arse handed in a debate :sly:

I think he's rather pulling out because a debate with a stubborn person like Alias is not worth having.

View PostChyros, on 11 November 2013 - 18:21, said:

I bet I could program an internet


#80 Ion Cannon!

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:53

View PostNid, on 4 May 2011, 12:23, said:

Who gives a shit what they should have done? The man admitted to, and probably did orchestrate the 9/11 attacks, I'm glad they did something about it rather than nothing. Think of the other possibilities the could have arose if they took him alive? Attempts on his life would have been made anyway. If Imprisoned there would again be a chance for him to become iconic amongst followers, as there would if images of him dead were released. The man deserved what he got, and frankly I'm glad I dont have to hear more from him. Ever. Fucking nutjob.


Indeed, there was little point in trying him because well, he already claimed responsibility for several terrorist attacks. A trial would have just confirmed his guilt. And then the americans would have killed him anyway.
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#81 CJ

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 11:59

What's saddening me the most is that some morons in my country are actually regretting his death, calling him a figure of the revolution and stuff. But then again, it doesn't surprise me. Arabs always were stupid.

View PostChyros, on 11 November 2013 - 18:21, said:

I bet I could program an internet


#82 Alias

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:01

View PostIon Cannon!, on 4 May 2011, 21:53, said:

View PostNid, on 4 May 2011, 12:23, said:

Who gives a shit what they should have done? The man admitted to, and probably did orchestrate the 9/11 attacks, I'm glad they did something about it rather than nothing. Think of the other possibilities the could have arose if they took him alive? Attempts on his life would have been made anyway. If Imprisoned there would again be a chance for him to become iconic amongst followers, as there would if images of him dead were released. The man deserved what he got, and frankly I'm glad I dont have to hear more from him. Ever. Fucking nutjob.


Indeed, there was little point in trying him because well, he already claimed responsibility for several terrorist attacks. A trial would have just confirmed his guilt. And then the americans would have killed him anyway.
Regardless of his level of guilt, a trial is still the correct thing to do.

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#83 deltaepsilon

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:07

A trial may be the correct thing to do, but a bullet to the head will save a lot of time, effort, and resources and general red tape to convict a man who is quite clearly guilty.
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#84 Ion Cannon!

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:52

View PostCJ, on 4 May 2011, 12:59, said:

What's saddening me the most is that some morons in my country are actually regretting his death, calling him a figure of the revolution and stuff. But then again, it doesn't surprise me. Arabs always were stupid.


It used to be the other way around, the arab world led in terms of science, literature, social issues ect. While europe squabbled over religion and treated illnesses with the most bizarre remedies. Sadly after the mongols and the Ottoman empire the middle east has never really recovered.
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#85 Kris

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 13:06

-del-

Edited by Kris, 27 February 2017 - 09:16.








#86 Chyros

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 13:22

I think someone should move this topic to the political corner now.

View Postdeltaepsilon, on 4 May 2011, 14:07, said:

A trial may be the correct thing to do, but a bullet to the head will save a lot of time, effort, and resources and general red tape to convict a man who is quite clearly guilty.
That depends on what you accuse him of. 9/11's not the only thing he's supposedly done. Though it's beyond doubt he's done horrible things to many people being the position he's been in, yet as far as the 9/11 attacks go, which is the only thing the US can technically convict him of, he would probably be acquitted in a fair trial since as far as I know the only evidence of his involvement in that is a video of a man vaguely resembling him admitting to having planned the attack, something that would probably be dismissed in court.
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#87 Libains

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 14:09

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 14:22, said:

I think someone should move this topic to the political corner now.

And there I was hoping somebody could actually create that topic for political discussion in there... Obviously not.

Topic Moved.
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#88 SquigPie

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 14:21

View PostCJ, on 4 May 2011, 13:33, said:

View PostTehKiller, on 4 May 2011, 12:01, said:

You are pulling out when you realized that you are having your arse handed in a debate :sly:

I think he's rather pulling out because a debate with a stubborn person like Alias is not worth having.


CJ is somewhat correct, Alias is too stubborn to debate with, as am I, so us getting into a debate would be like an unstoppable force hitting an immovable wall. :D

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As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
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#89 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 16:37

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 9:22, said:

I think someone should move this topic to the political corner now.

View Postdeltaepsilon, on 4 May 2011, 14:07, said:

A trial may be the correct thing to do, but a bullet to the head will save a lot of time, effort, and resources and general red tape to convict a man who is quite clearly guilty.
That depends on what you accuse him of. 9/11's not the only thing he's supposedly done. Though it's beyond doubt he's done horrible things to many people being the position he's been in, yet as far as the 9/11 attacks go, which is the only thing the US can technically convict him of, he would probably be acquitted in a fair trial since as far as I know the only evidence of his involvement in that is a video of a man vaguely resembling him admitting to having planned the attack, something that would probably be dismissed in court.

A video of yourself admitting to killing over 3000 people is pretty strong evidence Chyros... They also have sources that point to him as the leader of attacks, i.e. other people that were under him admitting to work for him.

I thought they already came out and stated this was supposed to be an assassination anyways?
:sly:
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#90 Chyros

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 17:33

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 18:37, said:

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 9:22, said:

I think someone should move this topic to the political corner now.

View Postdeltaepsilon, on 4 May 2011, 14:07, said:

A trial may be the correct thing to do, but a bullet to the head will save a lot of time, effort, and resources and general red tape to convict a man who is quite clearly guilty.
That depends on what you accuse him of. 9/11's not the only thing he's supposedly done. Though it's beyond doubt he's done horrible things to many people being the position he's been in, yet as far as the 9/11 attacks go, which is the only thing the US can technically convict him of, he would probably be acquitted in a fair trial since as far as I know the only evidence of his involvement in that is a video of a man vaguely resembling him admitting to having planned the attack, something that would probably be dismissed in court.

A video of yourself admitting to killing over 3000 people is pretty strong evidence Chyros... They also have sources that point to him as the leader of attacks, i.e. other people that were under him admitting to work for him.
All admissible evidence in court. If you look at the video in question you'll see the guy barely looks like him (certainly not passport photo material at the least), and just because people admit to working for him is not going to make him hang for one particular crime, no matter how horrible. I think you heavily overestimate just how obvious Al Qaeda, or to be more specific, the Taliban's involvement in this has been confirmed to be. It's been proven scientifically in several ways that it was not the planes that caused the towers to collapse and the only piece of evidence linking Bin Laden to that bombing is that dubious vid. If you look at the evidence objectively I seriously can't see how you'd establish a guilt on anyone strongly enough to come to any conviction in a court that was not corrupted. It's one thing to suspect someone of something and another one entirely to actually convict him of it. I the end I don't think anyone will ever know what truly happened on that fateful day. I only know that I trust science, and not what people tell you to believe just because it's retarded not to.
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#91 Golan

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 17:50

Aside from legal concerns, it would simply have been imperative to deconstruct the myth behind the man. With simply assassinating him (let's be honest, the circumstances known so far suggest nothing else), the US has made him a martyr and at the same time demonstrated that many of the prejudices about their global cowboy cop attitude are justified.

Especially seeing how this pretty much was a perfect case, he was definitely guilty, and he'd probably appear as no less than a total lunatic trying to defend against charges and spouting blind hatred, this would have been perfect for demonstrating the superiority of the "western" way - instead, we've only proven that we care shit about our own bigot ideals.
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#92 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 17:59

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 13:33, said:

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 18:37, said:

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 9:22, said:

I think someone should move this topic to the political corner now.

View Postdeltaepsilon, on 4 May 2011, 14:07, said:

A trial may be the correct thing to do, but a bullet to the head will save a lot of time, effort, and resources and general red tape to convict a man who is quite clearly guilty.
That depends on what you accuse him of. 9/11's not the only thing he's supposedly done. Though it's beyond doubt he's done horrible things to many people being the position he's been in, yet as far as the 9/11 attacks go, which is the only thing the US can technically convict him of, he would probably be acquitted in a fair trial since as far as I know the only evidence of his involvement in that is a video of a man vaguely resembling him admitting to having planned the attack, something that would probably be dismissed in court.

A video of yourself admitting to killing over 3000 people is pretty strong evidence Chyros... They also have sources that point to him as the leader of attacks, i.e. other people that were under him admitting to work for him.
All admissible evidence in court. If you look at the video in question you'll see the guy barely looks like him (certainly not passport photo material at the least), and just because people admit to working for him is not going to make him hang for one particular crime, no matter how horrible. I think you heavily overestimate just how obvious Al Qaeda, or to be more specific, the Taliban's involvement in this has been confirmed to be. It's been proven scientifically in several ways that it was not the planes that caused the towers to collapse and the only piece of evidence linking Bin Laden to that bombing is that dubious vid. If you look at the evidence objectively I seriously can't see how you'd establish a guilt on anyone strongly enough to come to any conviction in a court that was not corrupted. It's one thing to suspect someone of something and another one entirely to actually convict him of it. I the end I don't think anyone will ever know what truly happened on that fateful day. I only know that I trust science, and not what people tell you to believe just because it's retarded not to.

Over 30 videos linking Bin Laden not only to the 9/11 attacks but to other attacks resulting in fatalities have been discovered, as well as threats against President Obama, the US economy, propositions for people to join Al-Qaeda, etc. Even if half of those videos are "questionable," there is still a tremendous amount of evidence to support that Bin Laden has killed, or led others to kill for him.

And while this is conjecture, I think the US government has done far more than it's share of research on this man, far more than either of us could come up with on Google, given the best intelligence agency on Earth working on it for over 10 years. If it went to trial I'm pretty sure they could convict Osama of plenty to sentence him to death.

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#93 Chyros

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 18:26

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 19:59, said:

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 13:33, said:

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 18:37, said:

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 9:22, said:

I think someone should move this topic to the political corner now.

View Postdeltaepsilon, on 4 May 2011, 14:07, said:

A trial may be the correct thing to do, but a bullet to the head will save a lot of time, effort, and resources and general red tape to convict a man who is quite clearly guilty.
That depends on what you accuse him of. 9/11's not the only thing he's supposedly done. Though it's beyond doubt he's done horrible things to many people being the position he's been in, yet as far as the 9/11 attacks go, which is the only thing the US can technically convict him of, he would probably be acquitted in a fair trial since as far as I know the only evidence of his involvement in that is a video of a man vaguely resembling him admitting to having planned the attack, something that would probably be dismissed in court.

A video of yourself admitting to killing over 3000 people is pretty strong evidence Chyros... They also have sources that point to him as the leader of attacks, i.e. other people that were under him admitting to work for him.
All admissible evidence in court. If you look at the video in question you'll see the guy barely looks like him (certainly not passport photo material at the least), and just because people admit to working for him is not going to make him hang for one particular crime, no matter how horrible. I think you heavily overestimate just how obvious Al Qaeda, or to be more specific, the Taliban's involvement in this has been confirmed to be. It's been proven scientifically in several ways that it was not the planes that caused the towers to collapse and the only piece of evidence linking Bin Laden to that bombing is that dubious vid. If you look at the evidence objectively I seriously can't see how you'd establish a guilt on anyone strongly enough to come to any conviction in a court that was not corrupted. It's one thing to suspect someone of something and another one entirely to actually convict him of it. I the end I don't think anyone will ever know what truly happened on that fateful day. I only know that I trust science, and not what people tell you to believe just because it's retarded not to.

Over 30 videos linking Bin Laden not only to the 9/11 attacks but to other attacks resulting in fatalities have been discovered, as well as threats against President Obama, the US economy, propositions for people to join Al-Qaeda, etc. Even if half of those videos are "questionable," there is still a tremendous amount of evidence to support that Bin Laden has killed, or led others to kill for him.
There are threats against Obama every day from a shocking portion of the US population, sometimes for reasons even more retarded than the reasons some muslim fundamentalists want your country wiped off the earth for. You don't sentence them to death either, do you? And just because people join Al Qaeda doesn't mean they are guilty of something. And you can't convict someone for "crimes in general", you convict on a specific crime only. And in the case of the US convicting him, there's only one crime they have any jurisdiction on. I'm telling you, if you look at the technicalities of a court case, I'm not sure he'd actually get a conviction if the judge/jury would be unbiased. Really, I think you'd be surprised.
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#94 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 18:52

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 14:26, said:

There are threats against Obama every day from a shocking portion of the US population, sometimes for reasons even more retarded than the reasons some muslim fundamentalists want your country wiped off the earth for.

Not from the leader of one of the world's biggest terrorist organizations.

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 14:26, said:

And just because people join Al Qaeda doesn't mean they are guilty of something.

If you're the leader of Al-Qaeda, which has orchestrated attacks not only on the US but on other countries as well, you're guilty.

View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 14:26, said:

And you can't convict someone for "crimes in general", you convict on a specific crime only.

Shortly after the attacks on 9/11, the American and German governments both intercepted communications that pointed to Al Qaeda, and more specifically Bin Laden, as the leader of the attacks. Two of the hijackers on the planes were known members of Al-Qaeda, and as Osama Bin Laden was the leader of the terrorist group, it is logical that he would be the one who would plan such an act.

Osama was also linked to the bombing of the USS Cole in 1993 and the bombing of a US embassy in 1998.

Osama's own family has stated he has participated in all of these activities, not to mention other captured members of Al Qaeda. Also, Osama himself has stated that he orchestrated said attacks.

Three different, SPECIFIC crimes he can be convicted for.


View PostChyros, on 4 May 2011, 14:26, said:

And in the case of the US convicting him, there's only one crime they have any jurisdiction on.

:D
Osama's been linked to way more than just 9/11 Chyros, as stated earlier.

Finally, as a known head of the one of the world's biggest terrorist organizations, I think in a trial with the fairest jury and judge he would find himself in the same situation he is in now (assuming the death penalty was a sentence option). This man is one of the most researched men in the world, by the top intelligence agencies in the world, and you think they can't dig up enough evidence to give him the worst sentence possible? :sly:

Edited by Ghostrider, 04 May 2011 - 18:53.

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#95 Chyros

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 19:32

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 20:52, said:

Shortly after the attacks on 9/11, the American and German governments both intercepted communications that pointed to Al Qaeda, and more specifically Bin Laden, as the leader of the attacks. Two of the hijackers on the planes were known members of Al-Qaeda, and as Osama Bin Laden was the leader of the terrorist group, it is logical that he would be the one who would plan such an act.
Six of the twelve or so 9/11 hijackers are still alive. A curious fact considering they went down in smoke and flame. At temperatures that would supposedly melt steel it's also hard to imagine how their passports conveniently survived between the rubble to be found by the authorities. But more importantly, it's physically impossible and chemically proven, beyond any doubt, that it was not the planes flying into the buildings that caused the buildings to collapse. So unless Osama had a hand in the actual cause of the towers collapsing, he's innocent of that at least. Just because, if so, there is no proof of who REALLY did it doesn't mean that he should take the blame.

Don't get me wrong, I hate him and all that he stands for, and the more inhumane part of me is glad he's dead. I have eye witness accounts of the horrors the Taliban were involved in in Afghanistan; we've harboured an Afghan girl and her family in our house who had fled from the Taliban who wanted to force her to marry one of theirs and who made her and her family's life a living hell. But as far as 9/11 goes, I dimply don't see any real proof of his involvement of the deaths of all those people. I'm sure that totalling all evidence against him of other crimes it'd be easy to put him away for whatever number the prosecutors would deem sufficient. But be honest, that's NOT what I saw those people party about in all the vids of people shouting "USA USA" all the time.

Edited by Chyros, 04 May 2011 - 20:19.

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#96 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 20:31

You don't need to recover the information from the terrorists on the planes on 9/11, they record it all pre-flight anyway (names, passport information, etc.).

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But more importantly, it's physically impossible and chemically proven, beyond any doubt, that it was not the planes flying into the buildings that caused the buildings to collapse.

What caused them to collapse then!? They would not have collapsed if the planes didn't fly into the buildings...
Also, even if the towers didn't collapse, hundreds of people would still be dead from all three planes crashing after being hijacked by Al Qaeda terrorists.

And if Osama directed his terrorist organization to fly those planes into the WTC's on 9/11, he is certainly accountable for his actions. Just as President Obama is accountable for the death of Osama because he authorized and directed the US army to take him out.

Edited by Ghostrider, 04 May 2011 - 20:31.

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#97 Golan

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 20:43

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 17:59, said:

And while this is conjecture, I think the US government has done far more than it's share of research on this man, far more than either of us could come up with on Google, given the best intelligence agency on Earth working on it for over 10 years. If it went to trial I'm pretty sure they could convict Osama of plenty to sentence him to death.
Then where is the problem with bringing him to court and actually proving all that without any doubt? Setting an example, showing what a tainted person he was.

Some back ground wirepuller knowing for sure that someone is guilty doesn't cut it. Especially if it are the wirepullers that admittedly (yeah, no 9/11 conspiracy needed) that started a war on forged evidence. The wirepullers acknowledging nothing but their own laws (Den Haag, anyone?). The wirepullers might get their intel from CIA, NSA or TLA, but the world doesn't, and if they intent to police the world, they need to damn well stop pulling wires and talk to it.

Edited by Golan, 04 May 2011 - 20:53.

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#98 Chyros

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:10

View PostGhostrider, on 4 May 2011, 22:31, said:

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But more importantly, it's physically impossible and chemically proven, beyond any doubt, that it was not the planes flying into the buildings that caused the buildings to collapse.

What caused them to collapse then!? They would not have collapsed if the planes didn't fly into the buildings...
First off, the towers were designed from the start on to be capable of sustaining several jet impacts and survive. Second, the official report that still stands to this day states the reason for the collapse to be the melting of the steel core beams of the towers due to the fires of the exploding jets. However, kerosene does not burn nearly hot enough to melt steel. Even if the thermal insulation on the steel had somehow been blown away on all columns at once, the steel would not have melted. Third, you can see even with the naked eye in several ways that the impacts did not cause the collapse as it wasn't the impact centres that collapsed first; they were actually one of the later sections to collapse. It's especially obvious when you see that as soon as the towers start collapsing you see a huge cloud of dust at the bottom of the towers which is impossible if the buildings had collapsed to the impacts for obvious reasons. The buildings also fall at free fall speed which is impossible in the scenario suggested by the official report where the collapse of the top floors would strip away all the floors due to the impact of the subsequent floors hitting them, especially since this would leave the core columns standing. Fourth, the dust you see in the collapse at the bottom is white, not grey, and much finer than you'd see in the pulverising of concrete as the dust can only be several microns in size if you look at their weightlessness. These are thought to be aluminium oxide; a byproduct of a thermite reaction. Thermite is an incendiary mixture used in rail welding and controlled demolition that does the following reaction;

Fe2O3 + Al ---> Fe + Al2O3

in other words rust plus aluminium powder gives iron and aluminium oxide which is exactly what you see. Furthermore, XPS, TEM/SEM and TRS (i.e. electron microscopy and elemental analysis) analysis of the dust from the collapse show quite clearly that tiny iron spheres and sulphur residues are present which is exactly what happens when you ignite Thermate, a military version of thermite containing sulphur. The spheres can only evolve from molten iron droplets which is not possible to create during a fire and which has been independently proven to be the exact same result as that of a thermite explosion. Even unreacted particles of thermate were found at the scene. Fifth, the scene of ground zero, four to six weeks after 9/11 were found by thermal imaging to contain hotspots, which when dug up, turned out to be pools of molten iron in the deepest foundations of the tower. These can impossibly have evolved from the collapse or the airplanes for obvious reasons. Thermite however burns at about 2500 degrees C (about 4500 F) which is hot enough to create pools of molten metal that would've stayed hot for as long as they did. The core columns also showed a very obvious clean-cut profile typical of controlled demolition. Though to be fair these pictures were taken while the stuff was being excavated and therefore it's possible the salvage workers simply used a thermal lance to cut the columns away, no report of this was ever put forward. All of these profiles also fit the collapse of Building Seven perfectly, which not even a plane flew into before it collapsed. Sixth, the seismographic data from the scene at the time shows two shocks, one for each tower, right before the collapses twenty times as heavy as that of the measured impact of the jets.

I'd also put forward the countless eyewitness accounts of people who saw and heard explosions in the towers including the 118 firemen who attested to this and who were proficient with controlled demolitions as well as the crown witness who died shortly of unknown causes but those are not science and as such I personally disregard them, though I thought other people might enjoy it.

What conclusion to draw from it is a different story, though I'd say it's more than obvious it was NOT airplanes that caused it.
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#99 TehKiller

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:44

Not to mention Building 7 which seemed to collapse due to...well nothing. A building which was said to have destroyed by the terrorists seemed to collapse without even being hit by anything and along that it even formed a wedge shape of a controlled building demolition

Now I aint no conspiracy theorist or anything, but the lack of evidence for linking Osama and 9/11 is shocking. A 10 year war is still being waged based on that single shady vid. Not to mention the proposal the Taliban made to the US concerning extraditing Bin Laden.

Edited by TehKiller, 04 May 2011 - 21:45.

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#100 NergiZed

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 07:06

In other news, did anyone hear about the secret stealth chopper that was used (and C4'd) in the operation?

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Image of the remaining tail boom, which got blasted over the wall of the compound after the SEALs set off the charges.

More discussion here (though not much more info).



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