So, you kill 77 people and get 21 year jail term ? It says it is maximum term Norwegian Courts can give and there is no capital punishment. So what they are gonna do ? If someone explode a nuke in their country and kill millions, they still gonna get 21 years ? Wtf is this ? How they can call this as Justice ? That is a shame.
I am ashamed to see killer of these innocent people accuses Justice and find it ridiculous, killer himself more fair than court, what kind of system is that ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-17752189
Yes I am aware my own country's justice not so so great nor any other country perfect on that but I indeed shocked to hear such a result for this horrific event.
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Norwegian Justice System
Started By General, Apr 18 2012 16:33
21 replies to this topic
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 16:38
As far as I know, 21 years is the maximum term that can be given - but if he's reviewed towards the end of that sentence there's nothing stopping the justice system giving him another 21 years on top of it. It can be recurring, over and over again.
He'll be in there for life. Life in prison would be a greater punishment for him than death. He wants to be a martyr.
He'll be in there for life. Life in prison would be a greater punishment for him than death. He wants to be a martyr.
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 16:44
Alias, on 18 April 2012 - 16:38, said:
As far as I know, 21 years is the maximum term that can be given - but if he's reviewed towards the end of that sentence there's nothing stopping the justice system giving him another 21 years on top of it. It can be recurring, over and over again.
He'll be in there for life. Life in prison would be a greater punishment for him than death. He wants to be a martyr.
He'll be in there for life. Life in prison would be a greater punishment for him than death. He wants to be a martyr.
Indeed, thats true for the most countries, but last time I heard his cell was full with luxury items, and punishment system is pretty low compared to most countries aswell. They must give maximum kind of stressful life to such prisoners so they wont resist and suicide, that will not make him a martyr, but a pathetic person just like he should be called.
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 18:45
He will be a pathetic person regardless of a custodial or capital sentence.
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 18:47
Wizard, on 18 April 2012 - 18:45, said:
He will be a pathetic person regardless of a custodial or capital sentence.
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
There is, turning his life into a nightmare for rest of his life, tortute can be used also, there is no way to prevent it to happening again further, this man is not a lone lunatic, there is thousands like him lying around.
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:06
General, on 18 April 2012 - 18:47, said:
Wizard, on 18 April 2012 - 18:45, said:
He will be a pathetic person regardless of a custodial or capital sentence.
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
There is, turning his life into a nightmare for rest of his life, tortute can be used also, there is no way to prevent it to happening again further, this man is not a lone lunatic, there is thousands like him lying around.
sure! react to violence with... more violence. makes sense. that will solve everyone's problems immediately. including the miraculous resurrection of all the victims
i'm sick of people constantly reacting to all evils with vengeance, vengeance and more vengeance. when will you get it through your thick skulls that this solves absolutely nothing and in fact, only makes things worse for EVERYONE. the only way to truly solve anything is to take on the root of the problem, working preventively, not punishing people to no end.
it's time to wake up
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Posted 18 April 2012 - 19:16
Camille, on 18 April 2012 - 19:06, said:
General, on 18 April 2012 - 18:47, said:
Wizard, on 18 April 2012 - 18:45, said:
He will be a pathetic person regardless of a custodial or capital sentence.
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
Please keep in mind that a justice system should reflect a country as a whole at the time the act is committed, not the potential punitive actions that may be necessary because of a single fringe lunatic in the future. Before the attacks Norway had no need for sentences stronger than can be handed out now. Changes will occur as a result of the trial and judgement, but you cannot punish someone for murdering 77 people. There is no justice for that!
There is, turning his life into a nightmare for rest of his life, tortute can be used also, there is no way to prevent it to happening again further, this man is not a lone lunatic, there is thousands like him lying around.
sure! react to violence with... more violence. makes sense. that will solve everyone's problems immediately. including the miraculous resurrection of all the victims
i'm sick of people constantly reacting to all evils with vengeance, vengeance and more vengeance. when will you get it through your thick skulls that this solves absolutely nothing and in fact, only makes things worse for EVERYONE. the only way to truly solve anything is to take on the root of the problem, working preventively, not punishing people to no end.
But there is some people who deserve it, so what are we going to do ? Let him be free ? That will solve anything ? I too should like to live in a heavenly world but that is not the case, you gotta make evil people fear, thats how they get into line, if you loosen the chains, you will just make them destroy good and innocent peoples' lives.
Sometimes a good punishment is useful, if any other lunatic watch that court decision and if they ever did think " Hey, 21 year is nothing compared to what I gonna do ", then we will see the repeat of the horrific scene once more.
In reality Jesus's strategy wont work, if you love your enemy and try to hug them, you will only get whacked.
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:05
General, on 18 April 2012 - 19:16, said:
In reality Jesus's strategy wont work, if you love your enemy and try to hug them, you will only get whacked.
But it doesn't pretend you won't get whacked either.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:40
SquigPie, on 19 April 2012 - 06:05, said:
General, on 18 April 2012 - 19:16, said:
In reality Jesus's strategy wont work, if you love your enemy and try to hug them, you will only get whacked.
But it doesn't pretend you won't get whacked either.
Of course. Sorry if I being disrespectful to Christians with that sentence, I was just trying to give an example. I mean if we let the evil do whatever they please freely, and love them, they will just keep harming us, thats the way of evil. Sometimes only way to prevent evil is using their own ways againist them.
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:02
General, on 19 April 2012 - 06:40, said:
SquigPie, on 19 April 2012 - 06:05, said:
General, on 18 April 2012 - 19:16, said:
In reality Jesus's strategy wont work, if you love your enemy and try to hug them, you will only get whacked.
But it doesn't pretend you won't get whacked either.
Of course. Sorry if I being disrespectful to Christians with that sentence, I was just trying to give an example. I mean if we let the evil do whatever they please freely, and love them, they will just keep harming us, thats the way of evil. Sometimes only way to prevent evil is using their own ways againist them.
I understand, and I agree, somewhat. This is a tough problem to approach. I'm still unsure on what to think.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:30
General, on 19 April 2012 - 06:40, said:
SquigPie, on 19 April 2012 - 06:05, said:
General, on 18 April 2012 - 19:16, said:
In reality Jesus's strategy wont work, if you love your enemy and try to hug them, you will only get whacked.
But it doesn't pretend you won't get whacked either.
Of course. Sorry if I being disrespectful to Christians with that sentence, I was just trying to give an example. I mean if we let the evil do whatever they please freely, and love them, they will just keep harming us, thats the way of evil. Sometimes only way to prevent evil is using their own ways againist them.
i understand and respect your point of view but i personally can't agree with that. an ideal solution in my point of view would be a gradual shift to non-violence, no punishment and preventive measures against crime of any kind.
it's time to wake up
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:42
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 10:30, said:
no punishment and preventive measures against crime of any kind.
Wait, are you saying we shouldn't make any prevntive measures against crime? Or saying that instead of punishing, we should prevent it.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 13:17
SquigPie, on 19 April 2012 - 10:42, said:
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 10:30, said:
no punishment and preventive measures against crime of any kind.
Wait, are you saying we shouldn't make any prevntive measures against crime? Or saying that instead of punishing, we should prevent it.
the latter, yes.
it's time to wake up
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 13:26
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 13:17, said:
SquigPie, on 19 April 2012 - 10:42, said:
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 10:30, said:
no punishment and preventive measures against crime of any kind.
Wait, are you saying we shouldn't make any prevntive measures against crime? Or saying that instead of punishing, we should prevent it.
the latter, yes.
Isn't that a rather naive and, pardon me, a tiny bit simplistic?
Given that it is generally accepted that to prevent a crime there at least has to be an element of punitive action? How do consider we go about using the carrot on the donkey and doing away with the stick????
Edited by Wizard, 19 April 2012 - 13:27.
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 13:51
Wizard, on 19 April 2012 - 13:26, said:
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 13:17, said:
SquigPie, on 19 April 2012 - 10:42, said:
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 10:30, said:
no punishment and preventive measures against crime of any kind.
Wait, are you saying we shouldn't make any prevntive measures against crime? Or saying that instead of punishing, we should prevent it.
the latter, yes.
Isn't that a rather naive and, pardon me, a tiny bit simplistic?
Given that it is generally accepted that to prevent a crime there at least has to be an element of punitive action? How do consider we go about using the carrot on the donkey and doing away with the stick????
Get a longass arm?
But I agree, while I don't know if I prefer "punishment" or "rehabilitation". I can say, that we need there to be something that happens to wrongdoers.
Just letting them go sure won't work.
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As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 15:37
that is why it would need to be a gradual shift. a sudden change of rules would never work. my point is simply that i find today's society to be much too centred around punishment rather than actually helping the causes of problems in the first place. because y'know, it's easier to shoot/lock up a guy cause he stole money than to sustain a neighbourhood and keep people from tumbling into poverty. for example.
it's time to wake up
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Posted 19 April 2012 - 15:50
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 15:37, said:
i find today's society to be much too centred around punishment rather than actually helping the causes of problems in the first place. because y'know, it's easier to shoot/lock up a guy cause he stole money than to sustain a neighbourhood and keep people from tumbling into poverty. for example.
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:10
Camille, on 19 April 2012 - 15:37, said:
that is why it would need to be a gradual shift. a sudden change of rules would never work. my point is simply that i find today's society to be much too centred around punishment rather than actually helping the causes of problems in the first place. because y'know, it's easier to shoot/lock up a guy cause he stole money than to sustain a neighbourhood and keep people from tumbling into poverty. for example.
Well, I see your point, and I agree that we need to do more to prevent crime. But as Wizard says, it's impossible to completely prevent crime, human nature is to act irrationaly.
Quote
As long as the dark foundation of our nature, grim in its all-encompassing egoism, mad in its drive to make that egoism into reality, to devour everything and to define everything by itself, as long as that foundation is visible, as long as this truly original sin exists within us, we have no business here and there is no logical answer to our existence.
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
Imagine a group of people who are all blind, deaf and slightly demented and suddenly someone in the crowd asks, "What are we to do?"... The only possible answer is, "Look for a cure". Until you are cured, there is nothing you can do.
And since you don't believe you are sick, there can be no cure.
- Vladimir Solovyov
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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:45
To be entirely honest, I'm actually very impressed by the way Norway is handling the Breivik case. As it is going so far, Norway is on its best way to "win" the confrontation, an outcome that has been gravely missing in past terrorist cases.
This isn't about payback. There is no way justice could be served directly, no fee, no prison, no torture, not even death. Especially not death. You cannot kill Breivik 77 times; cannot let him feel the loss he caused, not anymore than you could take a blind man's sight. As pathetic as Breivik is, he's a man of conviction, of belief. Death and torture wouldn't be punishment, it'd be the price he was already willing to pay. Sure, the shell will suffer, but not the man, not the person that did this. You could just as well punish a failed suicide terrorist with death. There's no need to punish him with more than 21 years (very likely extended infinitely) because it amounts to the same for him.
With this in mind, I find the case exemplary in two ways: first, they do punish him, even now without a sentence. More than prison or torture ever could. They are deconstructing him, the person, worse, have him deconstruct himself for the pathetic being he is. He won't be remembered a martyr, a savior, a knight of justice or whatever crap he sees himself like, he'll be remembered as a deranged, pathetic coward. If you really want payback, this is the worst you can do to him: kill him, but let him live to feel it.
Second, Norway doesn't let him win. They have been hit with extreme cruelty, with relentless hate, with sorrow beyond what most people can even fathom. But they do not back down. They stand their ground. They don't give him the satisfaction of breaking their spirit, of turning them into a bizarre mirror of his own hatred, into the defective thing his deranged mind sees them as.
The case shows that there is something that is worth suffering for, dying for, sacrifice for. That's what Breivik wanted to be, wanted to be remembered as, someone willing to bring the ultimate sacrifice - but it's not Breivik who's showing this level of devotion. It's the people of Norway who show that they will not yield to Breivik's diktat.
This isn't about payback. There is no way justice could be served directly, no fee, no prison, no torture, not even death. Especially not death. You cannot kill Breivik 77 times; cannot let him feel the loss he caused, not anymore than you could take a blind man's sight. As pathetic as Breivik is, he's a man of conviction, of belief. Death and torture wouldn't be punishment, it'd be the price he was already willing to pay. Sure, the shell will suffer, but not the man, not the person that did this. You could just as well punish a failed suicide terrorist with death. There's no need to punish him with more than 21 years (very likely extended infinitely) because it amounts to the same for him.
With this in mind, I find the case exemplary in two ways: first, they do punish him, even now without a sentence. More than prison or torture ever could. They are deconstructing him, the person, worse, have him deconstruct himself for the pathetic being he is. He won't be remembered a martyr, a savior, a knight of justice or whatever crap he sees himself like, he'll be remembered as a deranged, pathetic coward. If you really want payback, this is the worst you can do to him: kill him, but let him live to feel it.
Second, Norway doesn't let him win. They have been hit with extreme cruelty, with relentless hate, with sorrow beyond what most people can even fathom. But they do not back down. They stand their ground. They don't give him the satisfaction of breaking their spirit, of turning them into a bizarre mirror of his own hatred, into the defective thing his deranged mind sees them as.
The case shows that there is something that is worth suffering for, dying for, sacrifice for. That's what Breivik wanted to be, wanted to be remembered as, someone willing to bring the ultimate sacrifice - but it's not Breivik who's showing this level of devotion. It's the people of Norway who show that they will not yield to Breivik's diktat.
Edited by Golan, 22 April 2012 - 10:47.
Now go out and procreate. IN THE NAME OF DOOM!
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Posted 25 August 2012 - 16:47
Oh right, only 21 years http://video.msnbc.m...78023/#48778023
And it is possible to get early release if he become a good boy...
And it is possible to get early release if he become a good boy...
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Posted 25 August 2012 - 17:20
21 years, yes.
And then when they do the review, it'll be another 21. And another 21 after that. The maximum individual sentence is 21 years but they can recur.
And then when they do the review, it'll be another 21. And another 21 after that. The maximum individual sentence is 21 years but they can recur.
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Posted 02 September 2012 - 22:20
You forget that Norway is not accustomed to crime, General.
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The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
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The brave hide behind technology. The stupid hide from it. The clever have technology, and hide it.
—The Book of Cataclysm
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