149 replies to this topic

[Alias]

Hobbesy, on 7 Jul 2010, 12:10, said:

The fact that he has an opinion would show that he is active, no?

I had opinions on what was happening here when I was banned, did that make me an active member?

Hobbesy, on 7 Jul 2010, 12:10, said:

I never directly stated that you said it needed to be changed. I want to know what you expected of it.

1. More respect.
2. Allowed him to actually write his own message.
3. Allowed him to actually have some input into his own demotion.
4. Given him time to resign instead of just backhanded him and pushed him into a lake of sharks for no reason.

As I said before, I'm not against the result, but the way you guys have gone about it is completely and utterly stupid.

[Hobbesy]

1. You wanted to be an active member again, did you not?

2. I agree, it wasn't a very good decision on our part.

Edited by Hobbesy, 07 July 2010 - 09:07.

[Nem]

Over the last five months I have been traveling between New York, Chicago, and Orlando and because of this my contributions post wise has suffered. Still, Living hard or otherwise I have provided any art required from the administration within hours and continued offering and suggesting new ways to further the community. Though my ideas were often radical and often silly at least there was effort. I have long felt every admin, with the exception of AJ were doing nothing but taking up space. Space I would have gladly filled and utilized for forum skin, web, or anything other development the community needed.

After seeing a none productive red fired then replaced with a even less productive member my frustration reached it's limit, I decided it's best to resign, seeing as how as (Alias has stated) I don't contribute to daily discussions and my help isn't wanted.

Maybe the staff rank can be brought back for people like me who actually want, and do contribute to the community... (Radical crazy idea)

Edited by Mr. Awesome, 07 July 2010 - 02:39.

[Alias]

Hobbesy, on 7 Jul 2010, 12:20, said:

1. You wanted to be an active member again, did you not?

You're getting the definitions wrong.
What I am saying is you think an active member is anyone with an "opinion of what is going on". That could be me whilst banned and unable to post. That could be a random guest. That could be someone looking at the preview text on a Google search.

In order to be an active member of the forum (not Steam or MSN) he actually has to participate to a certain extent. By your logic, myself while banned has as much qualification for the job as he does.

Hobbesy, on 7 Jul 2010, 12:20, said:

2. There were many reasons we decided to take the route we did.

Such as?

[Hobbesy]

Nuker posts just as much as I do. We had both had the same amount of posts on this forum today until I decided to take the liberty to explain certain actions in this thread. I'm sure he would have done the same right now if he was still awake.

I'm afraid I can't really go into detail on our reasons until tomorrow. I'll try to get back to you on that, though.

Edited by Hobbesy, 07 July 2010 - 02:27.

[Alias]

Hobbesy, on 7 Jul 2010, 12:27, said:

Nuker posts just as much as I do. We had both had the same amount of posts on this forum today until I decided to take the liberty to explain certain actions in this thread. I'm sure he would have done the same right now if he was still awake.

For today, maybe. But certainly not regularly. His last 25 posts go all the way back to May. Your last 25 posts go all the way back to the 2nd of July. Within Nuker's last 25 posts, there has been one month long gap, and several week long gaps. Almost every semi-active member is around more. Hell, the admins that have retired/been fired for low activity in the last week are more active than him.

Sauce (need the low quality in order to get to a respectable size, important data is legible):
Nuker
Hobbesy

[Whitey]

Over the years, I've had my disputes with the administration, and I hate to create some friction again, but I don't feel that the best decisions have been made here.

How can one be fit to lead while clearly exercising such miserable tact? Part of leading a community is holding that community's respect, and to do that, it is rather necessary to make decisions with concern for the members at large. CoedeCat, I am certain, wields more respect around here than the rest of the administration here. He has been around longer, contributed more, and his primary leadership took place in a progressive period for this forum. Life has a tendency to get in the way, but that is not adequate reason to forcibly remove an administrator without proper consultation - especially such a long-serving one.

And so, because I doubt I have ever said it in the past, I respect your service here CodeCat. I know we were not always on the same page, but I value what you have done for this community.

As for you, Nem, I have seen your work and community support and I have listened to some of your radical ideas. Based on what I know of you, I would agree that you are very well-suited to e a staff member if the position were to exist again. It is by far a more fitting position than "Gold Member", which denotes retirement.

Nuker, I believe you will do a fine job permitting you become more active once again. You were the community's most active member at one point and though you are probably busier now than then, I have faith that you will be able to fulfill your responsibilities adequately. I look forward to seeing you holding a higher rank around here once again.

[Ion Cannon!]

Alias, on 7 Jul 2010, 2:31, said:

While I tend to agree with the decision I certainly don't agree with the means. Going by what Codecat says, it seems you guys never even asked him about what he would prefer. To be honest it seems like a massive breach of trust between all of you. It seems ridiculous that you completely rejected the longest serving admin/mod, what makes it worse is the closest of you to him is Bob, and even then Bob has only been going for three and a half years. When I was finally getting used to the so called 'new' administration, you're making it very hard for me to like you.

And Nuker? You've got to be joking. The guy posts about 3 times a week. He posts as much as Nem does.

In other news, I'm just curious, but how exactly can the root admin get demoted by non-roots?
Or did everyone get root somewhere along the line...

On a slightly lighter note, from the title, I initially though you were announcing a special forum for older members (although that wouldn't make much sense considering how little the veteran population actually is ;_.

I too agree with the decision, but I think it was handled quite badly. However code is also blowing some things out of proportion. I really don't think it matters how long he's been an admin for, what matters is how suitable he still was for the job, and I feel that he hasn't been suitable for quite a while.

After speaking with code, he was aware he needed to do more, but didn't know how to go about it. Ergo, he had no idea how to contribute. There were quite a few things he could have helped AJ with, he just had to use some initiative, however he did say he was never asked. I think one of the reasons code feels it was dropped like a bomb is because the admins don't communicate thoughts of that matter to one another. I feel that was a mistake.

There have been failings on codes part and on the part of the other admins, blame lies in both parties. The lesson that needs to be learnt is that communication is key.

In addition I take the same view Nem does. Or I did, i'm hoping the new team can be a bit more motivated and actually do something. While nem was a gmoo he suggested some very good things and I hope those aren't just wasted and come to fruition in the nearish future. Where I disagree, is on the point of Hobbes, I think he is very motivated and I know he has a good deal of fair time. Hopefully these should result in him contributing a good deal.

On the point of nuker, while I understand Alias's point. All timezones need to be covered. An american mod resigned, so an american mod will take his place. On the point of activity, nuker has indeed been a bit inactive as of recently, but he has good reason for it. Additionally, theres really very little moderation that needs to be done now anyway.

[Alias]

Ion Cannon!, on 7 Jul 2010, 12:54, said:

On the point of nuker, while I understand Alias's point. All timezones need to be covered. An american mod resigned, so an american mod will take his place. On the point of activity, nuker has indeed been a bit inactive as of recently, but he has good reason for it. Additionally, theres really very little moderation that needs to be done now anyway.

Why bother at all then? Hobbesy has the American timezone covered, and is far more likely to actually be online during the American timezone. It seems to be a trophy position more than anything. I reiterate what I mentioned before, if you're going to have more admins than mods, why bother with mods at all?

[Nem]

Boidy, on 6 Jul 2010, 22:46, said:

How can one be fit to lead while clearly exercising such miserable tact? Part of leading a community is holding that community's respect, and to do that, it is rather necessary to make decisions with concern for the members at large.

This. Though I can respect Hobbes as my peer, It pains me to consider him my superior. Juvenile as it sounds, I can't help but feel this way, and I am sure there are many who feel the same. I did a double take when I saw his name in red

Ion Cannon!, on 6 Jul 2010, 22:54, said:

Where I disagree, is on the point of Hobbes, I think he is very motivated and I know he has a good deal of fair time. Hopefully these should result in him contributing a good deal.

Don't get my wrong, Hobbes is a cool guy and a friend to me as is to you and I fear that, that fact is clouding your judgment. Realisticly, What will Hobbes bring to the table, other then posts, Which Alias has pointed out, are not many. Codecat had skill coding wise, which he regularly helped me as well as many other project leaders with, and though that contribution is minimal, his amount of experience and respect was worth tons more then a handfull of posts.

Edited by Mr. Awesome, 07 July 2010 - 03:37.

[Stinger]

This smacks of a coup d'etat. Forced removal of a leader and an attempt to airbrush it with rhetorical spin doctoring.

CodeCat's version of events are at a polar opposite with AJ's.

AJ, on 6 Jul 2010, 22:28, said:

Thus, as of this moment, after well over 5 years of serving this community, CodeCat has been asked to relinquish his position. It was with great difficulty that we reached this decision, but it has been made aware to some of you that Code's position has occasionally caused rifts amongst the community and with other communities. With this decision, we feel that we can continue with our community as before, and allow Code a much needed rest.

Compare AJ's above statement with CodeCat's below:

CodeCat, on 7 Jul 2010, 1:36, said:

However, I never got that chance, and this is what makes me very angry right now. Instead of asking that I step down as administrator, I was forcibly demoted. Only after the fact did they explain why. Firstly what gets me here is that they did not trust me enough to expect me to step down on my own. This was a big blow to me. But secondly, the reasons they have given me for my forced resignations are based on, in my view, conjecture and hearsay.

Someone is lying.

Who do you trust?

Edited by Stinger, 07 July 2010 - 03:16.

[Overdose]

This thread got intense. Just look at all the anonymous here.

[retry_1]

it was obvious from the start that it wasn't code's choice to 'step down'. if it was really to 'reduce the size of the admin team' you just wouldn't have promoted hobbsey.
i respect the hell out of codecat and he deserves much better than this.

[Sgt. Nuker]

Before this thread goes any farther, and before it begins to look like I'm an ungrateful sod, I would like to thank the forum staff for granting me my old position.

Say what you like about me, for I know I have it coming. At the very least, be honest. The test of a man is not how well he is liked, but how well he can weather the storm of detracting statements hurled at him.

[Alias]

That's all you have to say? No "I'll try to be more active to fulfil my duties", no "I know I've been lacking recently but I'll make up for it"?
You really are not helping yourself.

This seems nothing more than a trophy position. Unlike Codecat or Nem you don't even have a specialisation you can help the other staff with.

retry_1, on 7 Jul 2010, 13:34, said:

it was obvious from the start that it wasn't code's choice to 'step down'. if it was really to 'reduce the size of the admin team' you just wouldn't have promoted hobbsey.
i respect the hell out of codecat and he deserves much better than this.

Got to agree with that. The "even number of admins is detrimental to decisions" line no longer works either.

[Sgt. Nuker]

You came honest, and that's all I asked for. To answer, I prefer to let my activity from here on out speak for me, rather than form into words and sentences what I will do. Actions speak louder than words, so nothing I can say or write on this forum will ever truly change anyone's mind, only what I do.

[Libains]

Stinger, on 7 Jul 2010, 4:15, said:

This smacks of a coup d'etat. Forced removal of a leader and an attempt to airbrush it with rhetorical spin doctoring.

CodeCat's version of events are at a polar opposite with AJ's.

AJ, on 6 Jul 2010, 22:28, said:

Thus, as of this moment, after well over 5 years of serving this community, CodeCat has been asked to relinquish his position. It was with great difficulty that we reached this decision, but it has been made aware to some of you that Code's position has occasionally caused rifts amongst the community and with other communities. With this decision, we feel that we can continue with our community as before, and allow Code a much needed rest.

Compare AJ's above statement with CodeCat's below:

CodeCat, on 7 Jul 2010, 1:36, said:

However, I never got that chance, and this is what makes me very angry right now. Instead of asking that I step down as administrator, I was forcibly demoted. Only after the fact did they explain why. Firstly what gets me here is that they did not trust me enough to expect me to step down on my own. This was a big blow to me. But secondly, the reasons they have given me for my forced resignations are based on, in my view, conjecture and hearsay.

Someone is lying.

Who do you trust?

You know what? It's 8:00am in the morning, and I've already been put in a lovely foul mood. I shall be posting properly, later, when I come home from work. Until then just let me express my utmost disgust at what you have said here Stinger. Were I a lesser man, I would happily inflict a like-for-like ban on you here as you did for me on SWR, because all you've done is be incredibly foul-natured, and desperately attempted to undermine my, and the other admins' position. You should be ashamed of yourself, and know better.

@ Everyone else - Cool your fucking horses.

[CodeCat]

AJ, on 7 Jul 2010, 9:08, said:

all you've done is be incredibly foul-natured, and desperately attempted to undermine my, and the other admins' position.

Sounds familiar.

[Alias]

AJ, on 7 Jul 2010, 17:08, said:

@ Everyone else - Cool your fucking horses.

You're telling us to cool off, right after you've done the most ridiculous thing in the history of this forum? And you're saying you're in a foul mood?

I sure wonder why, I'd feel pretty foul too if I just backstabbed one of the most trusted people here.

[CodeCat]

Something I also forgot to note is that as part of demoting me, they put me on moderator preview. Yes, moderator preview. That means you can't post until a moderator approves the post. Luckily at least Hobbesy was kind enough to take it off. But it shows how much they distrusted me and didn't want me to speak my mind freely.

I also asked whether I could retain some duties on the TF2 server, and DR immediately said no. However, Slye was promoted to moderator on the TF2 server (congratulations to him as nobody else thought to mention it!). Yet DR won't even let me do that. It seems that I've now become persona non grata in all areas of FS.

EDIT: CJ expressed disbelief that they would actually put me on preview. So here's the convo between me and Hobbesy when I made the post:

Quote

[02:38] CodeCat: Hmm why is my post not showing?
[02:38] Sean: ...
[02:38] Sean: Dammit AJ
[02:38] Sean: One second, I'll fix it
[02:38] CodeCat: He put me on moderator preview?
[02:38] CodeCat: Seriously?
[02:46] Sean: It should be gone now.
[02:46] CodeCat: Did I really sink that low in his eyes?
[02:46] Sean: I told him that you didn't require it, but I had to leave as well.

Edited by CodeCat, 18 December 2010 - 22:49.

[Alias]

CodeCat, on 7 Jul 2010, 17:46, said:

Something I also forgot to note is that as part of demoting me, they put me on moderator preview. Yes, moderator preview. That means you can't post until a moderator approves the post. Luckily at least Hobbesy was kind enough to take it off. But it shows how much they distrusted me and didn't want me to speak my mind freely.

To think it couldn't get more suspicious...
Sorry, AJ, but Stinger's words seem to ring true at the moment.

CodeCat, on 7 Jul 2010, 17:46, said:

I also asked whether I could retain some duties on the TF2 server, and DR immediately said no. However, Slye was promoted to moderator on the TF2 server (congratulations to him as nobody else thought to mention it!). Yet DR won't even let me do that. It seems that I've now become persona non grata in all areas of FS.

This I don't agree with. While I would have personally voted to have you asked to resign (key word: asked) from at least admin-level duties, I still would have kept you on as an admin advisor as well as retaining other responsibilities that you would've liked to keep such as the server.

This seems a little too much like a power grab.

[Golan]

*salutes Codecat with shoe on head*

*hurries off to fetch some torches*

[CJ]

I might've not always been on good terms with Codecat, nor have I always agreed with most of the decisions he made, but I still respect him a lot for what he did for this community, and discovering that he wasn't in fact informed that he was going to be sacked, and instead forced to resign without being given any explanation is just a disgusting move. I was expecting better from the FS administration.

And concerning the activity argument, Codecat might've been not active enough, but at least he's here more often than some other staff members. And I know for one that he always was (the only one) listening to the ideas I proposed for the TF2 server, and actually cared about the player's opinions like many of the regulars can confirm.
As for putting him on moderator preview, I think I never saw someone's dignity so scoffed. You guys should be apologizing for what you did and instead you're not even showing him the slightest part of respect. It is just disgusting. I can't find any other word to express it.

Edited by CJ, 07 July 2010 - 09:58.

[Sgt. Rho]

Well, to be honest I can only say "What the bloody fuck?!" on this one.

Basically you have kicked CodeCat off his Admin position why exactly? Because He's been "not that active"? And then, by what it seems, you've not even talked to him about it, just declared him guilty of all charges without telling him what the charges even are, as himself put it. Then even put him on moderator preview, apparently so that he can't tell his side of the story. Sorry, but this is easily the most stupid of the most stupid decisions made in all history of FS. Specially the way the OP was written, sounded an awful lot like "Oh hi guys we just kick'd the most respected and longest serving admin in the face. In other news...".

Long story short: Are you nuts?!


---

Tho, I also want to say gratz to Nuker for his possition as G-Mod, you deserve it

[BeefJeRKy]

This new information has taken me by surprise, but I have no time for it currently. I'll be on leave until next Wednesday. That's all I can say for now.