153 replies to this topic

[Rayburn]

Sounds like another Youtube conspiracy video. Why would aliens care about a nuclear war between us petty humans?

[Ion Cannon!]

The aliens would be sitting atop their utopian megacities laughing, much like I was when certain idiots thought certain people were trying to take over ES.

And seriously if you really think the world is going to end. GET THE FUCK OUT! I can tolerate certain levels of ignorance and stupidity but if your that stupid, just fuck off and pull that trigger.

[Rai]

Just tell it to the teenage girl in India, who suicide because she thought the LHC Experiment would end the world.

[Rayburn]

You can also walk out of your house on a stormy day and get your head smashed in by a falling roof tile.
Still, you don't kill yourself in advance just because you are afraid that this might happen, right?

Edited by Rayburn, 12 September 2008 - 14:15.

[Rai]

I agree with you buddy!

[Rich19]

 Jamie^, on 12 Sep 2008, 10:16, said:

What annoys me most is that people bang on about it costing several billion for the whole thing, and people dont realise that MORE than this is spent on Iraq and Afghanistan every day.

Something I heard on the radio - because this few billion is paid for by an awful lot of countries, the UK spends more on peanuts than it does the LHC. I think knowing more about how the universe started is worth more than peanuts, tbh.

[Rai]

Though the Large Hadron Collider didn't kill us when those crazy CERN scientists closed their eyes, said a prayer, recited a few theorems and switched it on for the first time, the secret is that it could have killed us. When they built the collider, the scientists installed a black-hole creation button. (The button is real, but it doesn't actually do anything.)

No black holes, no tearing of space-time fabric, no instant worm hole to the Gamma Quadrant. "There is a wry sense of humor that pervades the [LHC] scientists," said Rai, one of the MIT researchers on duty at the LHC. In addition to the sign that warns users of a black hole creation, there's another equally predictable sign on the side of the balcony overlooking the detector that reads "Please do not feed the Physicists."*Which means do not feed Dauth, I repeat do not feed Dauth!*

Can you imagine using a 14-mile ring to monitor particles that look like pucks to a hockey rink of an atom? And doing it while death threats from ignorant loonies the world over come pouring in? "There's a fair amount of stress at times trying to make the detector go, so defusing it with humor is one way to maintain sanity," I said.

Edited by Papaya Master Rai, 12 September 2008 - 14:33.

[Wizard]

Let's play Devil's Advocate for one second. Now I know that there is pretty much no chance of the world ending when the LHC is actually fired up. In reality the story was probably conjured up by someone at CERN PR to generate some interest in the matter (no pun intended). However, if this is going to be a first, then how do we actually know it won't create a black hole the size of a pin head and kill us all?? Science is based on paradigms. As so much is. Until we break that paradigm it is considered to be gospel. Right now, a lot of men and women smarter than me are saying they are looking forward to finding out how the universe was created by using the LHC. But they don't know they will. They have assessed the possibilities based on the limited knowledge of the universe etc and calculated, using a number of variables fundamentally based on the paradigm, that they hope to see some evidence of the energy of the first seconds of the universe. The fact is, we don't actually KNOW what will happen. We can guess, but all of our guesses are based on possibly flawed logic. Ergo anything is possible. No?

[Dauth]

 Wizard, on 12 Sep 2008, 16:44, said:

Let's play Devil's Advocate for one second. Now I know that there is pretty much no chance of the world ending when the LHC is actually fired up. In reality the story was probably conjured up by someone at CERN PR to generate some interest in the matter (no pun intended). However, if this is going to be a first, then how do we actually know it won't create a black hole the size of a pin head and kill us all?? Science is based on paradigms. As so much is. Until we break that paradigm it is considered to be gospel. Right now, a lot of men and women smarter than me are saying they are looking forward to finding out how the universe was created by using the LHC. But they don't know they will. They have assessed the possibilities based on the limited knowledge of the universe etc and calculated, using a number of variables fundamentally based on the paradigm, that they hope to see some evidence of the energy of the first seconds of the universe. The fact is, we don't actually KNOW what will happen. We can guess, but all of our guesses are based on possibly flawed logic. Ergo anything is possible. No?

We have studied particles of greater energy than the 14TeV at CERN. Not to mention that at the start of the universe there were much greater energies for every particle. We'd be up to our ears in black holes.

If high energy collisions caused black holes there would be no universe, we've seen high energy particles, how do you think we see them without them colliding with something? I want to know the issues with CERN, since the Tevatron is at 2TeV and no one seems to care that it's been running for over a decade.

[Wizard]

It really isn't the issue of a black hole that I was talking about. More something along the lines of that this hasn't been done before. The ultimate results might actually end up making a collect, long distance telephone call to God. No one can say for certain if something like this hasn't been done. Which is something every scientist has been rattling on about for some time. Like I said I don't doubt the result will be as expected. But we should all consider that it might be something we didn't expect at the same time. Basically because we, as humans, generally only think in paradigms until one is broken.

[Dauth]

We have already studied a number of systems at over 14 TeV all CERN does is make a large amount of them in a more controlled manner.

[Wizard]

So then arguably this isn't such a first, is that what you are saying?

[Dauth]

It's the first time it's been done. It is the first time the entire process is under our control, previously you used to sit with a detector waiting for a cosmic ray.

[Rai]

You mean you are the designer of the LHC?

[Jazzie Spurs]

HE BUILT IT IN A CAVE!
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

[Rai]

Seriously, SCRAP METAL?

[Dauth]

 Papaya Master Rai, on 15 Sep 2008, 13:29, said:

You mean you are the designer of the LHC?

Yes 10 years ago at the age of 12 I proposed the Large Hadron Collider, I also then flew to Mars. It took a team of thousands of scientists ten years to design and build.

As for scrap metal, it's costing £6.2bn we are getting brand new (best ever) supercooled magnets. I did build a cosmic ray detector for a project, but that was much simpler.

[Rai]

Dauth is this, why I believe another one of your sarcasms?

[Kichō]

^You don't know who built the LHC? :s

[logical2u]

 Dauth, on 12 Sep 2008, 12:54, said:

We'd be up to our ears in black holes.

If high energy collisions caused black holes there would be no universe, we've seen high energy particles, how do you think we see them without them colliding with something?

1. The galaxy already seems to have quite a few black-holes, though - one at the centre of every galaxy, for example?
2. Isn't there still a theory of quantum black-holes that says that high-energy collisions could in fact cause black holes, but that their time of decay would be incredibly small? So isn't it possible that we've seen quantum blackholes, but they've dissipated so fast that we don't really detect them (This is overly simplistic, though - we should still be able to detect the radiation they emit when they dissipate, especially in particle accelerators. There's the off chance that we aren't able to detect it at all, though)

Oh, and what if blackholes are essentially wormholes through space-time, emitting their "inhaled" matter elsewhere? Thus the matter of the universe would be conserved, and sort of "recycled"?

 Sergeant Major J. Kid, on 15 Sep 2008, 10:50, said:

HE BUILT IT IN A CAVE!
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

Well, it IS underground, but I don't think it has the same level of "kickassery" as a giant mechanized suit of armour controlled by a playboy billionaire weapons dealer.

PS: There was a book dealing with the effects of a quantum black hole escaping a particle accelerator (Called Earth). Suffice to say it wasn't good, but it was also a sci-fi book too - in the end they kind of "Ghostbuster"ed the black hole out of the core somehow.... and made a bunch of metaphysical claims as to the sentience of the Earth, I think. It's been a while since I read it, to be honest, but I thought it was cool at the time, and now it just seems a little bit funnier that we are actually worrying about this happening in reality.

PPS: Sorry about that last block of unpunctuated text.

[Dauth]

 logical2u, on 16 Sep 2008, 2:59, said:

 Dauth, on 12 Sep 2008, 12:54, said:

We'd be up to our ears in black holes.

If high energy collisions caused black holes there would be no universe, we've seen high energy particles, how do you think we see them without them colliding with something?

1. The galaxy already seems to have quite a few black-holes, though - one at the centre of every galaxy, for example?
2. Isn't there still a theory of quantum black-holes that says that high-energy collisions could in fact cause black holes, but that their time of decay would be incredibly small? So isn't it possible that we've seen quantum blackholes, but they've dissipated so fast that we don't really detect them (This is overly simplistic, though - we should still be able to detect the radiation they emit when they dissipate, especially in particle accelerators. There's the off chance that we aren't able to detect it at all, though)

Oh, and what if blackholes are essentially wormholes through space-time, emitting their "inhaled" matter elsewhere? Thus the matter of the universe would be conserved, and sort of "recycled"?

 Sergeant Major J. Kid, on 15 Sep 2008, 10:50, said:

HE BUILT IT IN A CAVE!
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

Well, it IS underground, but I don't think it has the same level of "kickassery" as a giant mechanized suit of armour controlled by a playboy billionaire weapons dealer.

PS: There was a book dealing with the effects of a quantum black hole escaping a particle accelerator (Called Earth). Suffice to say it wasn't good, but it was also a sci-fi book too - in the end they kind of "Ghostbuster"ed the black hole out of the core somehow.... and made a bunch of metaphysical claims as to the sentience of the Earth, I think. It's been a while since I read it, to be honest, but I thought it was cool at the time, and now it just seems a little bit funnier that we are actually worrying about this happening in reality.

PPS: Sorry about that last block of unpunctuated text.

1) There's nowhere near enough. If we have detected 50+ ultra high energy muons going through detectors on the Earth the intensity of high energy muons is too great to be explained by Super massive blackholes at the centre of galaxies.
2)You can call it a quantum black hole for the duration of the collision, I don't know what to call it other than, 'A region of space with exceptionally high energy density'.

Given we can see well into the distance (and thus into time) how come we've not seen the matter coming out? Also we have theories limiting the lower mass of a black hole, we don't happen to be losing black holes.

[Rai]

This will surely break the heart for those who like the LHC and will make the others happy for those who doesn't like the LHC!!!

GENEVA - The world's largest particle collider malfunctioned within hours of its launch to great fanfare, but its operator didn't report the problem for a week.

In a statement Thursday, the European Organization for Nuclear Research reported for the first time that a 30-ton transformer that cools part of the collider broke, forcing physicists to stop using the atom smasher just a day after starting it up last week.

The faulty transformer has been replaced and the ring in the 17-mile circular tunnel under the Swiss-French border has been cooled back down to near zero on the Kelvin scale — minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit — the most efficient operating temperature, said a statement by CERN, as the organization is known.

When the transformer malfunctioned, operating temperatures rose from below 2 Kelvin to 4.5 Kelvin — extraordinarily cold by most standards, but warmer than the normal operating temperature.

CERN had not reported any problems with the project since its launch Sept. 10, but issued its statement shortly after The Associated Press called asking about rumors of troubles.

Physicists said it wasn't surprising problems would occur in getting a huge and immensely complicated collection of equipment like the Large Hadron Collider up and running smoothly.

"This is arguably the largest machine built by humankind, is incredibly complex, and involves components of varying ages and origins, so I'm not at all surprised to hear of some glitches," Steve Giddings, physics professor at University of California, Santa Barbara. "It's a real challenge requiring incredible talent, brain power and coordination to get it running."

Judith Jackson, spokesman for the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., echoed that view.

"We know how complex and extraordinary it is to start up one of these machines. No one's built one of these before and in the process of starting it up there will inevitably be glitches," she said.

Fermilab is home to the Tevatron, an accelerator that collides protons and antiprotons in a 4-mile-long underground ring to allow physicists to study subatomic particles. Jackson said transformer malfunctions can be common and aren't dangerous.

"These things happen," she said. "It's a little setback and it sounds like they've dealt with it and are moving forward."

The Large Hadron Collider is designed to collide protons in the beams so that they shatter and reveal more about the makeup of matter and the universe.

After it was started up Sept. 10, scientists circled a beam of protons in a clockwise direction at the speed of light. They shut that down, then turned on a counterclockwise beam.

"Several hundred orbits" were made, CERN's statement said.

On the evening of Sept. 11, scientists had succeeded in controlling the counterclockwise beam with equipment that keeps the protons in the tightly bunched stream that will be needed for collisions, but then the transformer failed and the system was shut down, the statement said.

The clockwise beam was not on at the time. Now that the transformer has been replaced and the equipment rechilled, scientists expect to try soon to tighten the clockwise beam and prepare experiments in coming weeks, the statement said.

Before the problem occurred, scientists had said it would probably be several weeks before the first significant collisions were attempted.

Edited by Papaya Master Rai, 20 September 2008 - 04:33.

[Jamie^]

LHC BROKEN GUISE GONNA BE OFF FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS!

[Rai]

 Papaya Master Rai, on 18 Sep 2008, 12:33, said:

This will surely break the heart for those who like the LHC and will make the others happy for those who doesn't like the LHC!!!

GENEVA - The world's largest particle collider malfunctioned within hours of its launch to great fanfare, but its operator didn't report the problem for a week.

In a statement Thursday, the European Organization for Nuclear Research reported for the first time that a 30-ton transformer that cools part of the collider broke, forcing physicists to stop using the atom smasher just a day after starting it up last week.

The faulty transformer has been replaced and the ring in the 17-mile circular tunnel under the Swiss-French border has been cooled back down to near zero on the Kelvin scale — minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit — the most efficient operating temperature, said a statement by CERN, as the organization is known.

When the transformer malfunctioned, operating temperatures rose from below 2 Kelvin to 4.5 Kelvin — extraordinarily cold by most standards, but warmer than the normal operating temperature.

CERN had not reported any problems with the project since its launch Sept. 10, but issued its statement shortly after The Associated Press called asking about rumors of troubles.

Physicists said it wasn't surprising problems would occur in getting a huge and immensely complicated collection of equipment like the Large Hadron Collider up and running smoothly.

"This is arguably the largest machine built by humankind, is incredibly complex, and involves components of varying ages and origins, so I'm not at all surprised to hear of some glitches," Steve Giddings, physics professor at University of California, Santa Barbara. "It's a real challenge requiring incredible talent, brain power and coordination to get it running."

Judith Jackson, spokesman for the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., echoed that view.

"We know how complex and extraordinary it is to start up one of these machines. No one's built one of these before and in the process of starting it up there will inevitably be glitches," she said.

Fermilab is home to the Tevatron, an accelerator that collides protons and antiprotons in a 4-mile-long underground ring to allow physicists to study subatomic particles. Jackson said transformer malfunctions can be common and aren't dangerous.

"These things happen," she said. "It's a little setback and it sounds like they've dealt with it and are moving forward."

The Large Hadron Collider is designed to collide protons in the beams so that they shatter and reveal more about the makeup of matter and the universe.

After it was started up Sept. 10, scientists circled a beam of protons in a clockwise direction at the speed of light. They shut that down, then turned on a counterclockwise beam.

"Several hundred orbits" were made, CERN's statement said.

On the evening of Sept. 11, scientists had succeeded in controlling the counterclockwise beam with equipment that keeps the protons in the tightly bunched stream that will be needed for collisions, but then the transformer failed and the system was shut down, the statement said.

The clockwise beam was not on at the time. Now that the transformer has been replaced and the equipment rechilled, scientists expect to try soon to tighten the clockwise beam and prepare experiments in coming weeks, the statement said.

Before the problem occurred, scientists had said it would probably be several weeks before the first significant collisions were attempted.

BLAME THE OPERATOR!

[CommanderJB]

Just saw a news article on television which said that they've had a large leak of the liquid helium used for cooling and it won't be online again for another two or three months, which is a blasted shame after all the lead-up to the first power on. Still, as the director said in the news segment, it's the world's most complicated machine, so it would be stretching the imagination a little to expect absolutely every bit to work perfectly first time. Oh well. We'll see what happens in a few month's time I suppose...